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* Active Worlds chat session: Wed Mar 1, 2000 1:20 PM *
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CyberForum with Brenda Laurel on Wednesday, March 1st, 1:30 PM PST.
ommm: hi folks
"sgp": hello
gaga: hello!
BrendaL: Hey hey Michael, I'm here - a bit disoriented!
"bjorn": ok!
godster: hi all!
"Laertes": hi all
"skejs": hi everyone
ommm: hey Laertes, it's been a while
nomad: hi skejs
godster: hi skejs!
[Hermes]: Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California
ommm: uh-oh! there goes Hermes again...
godster: shut up, hermes!
nomad: you can't say accd
ommm: whenever you say "accd" in your chat, he/she pipes up
[Hermes (who is a bot)]: Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California
gaga: let's get him to say something else, like, Polly wants a cracker or something more apt
ommm: Herm the progaganda machine
Immigration Officer: You are being joined by BrendaL.
ommm: okay, avatars, it's time to begin today's Forum
BrendaL: What an odd looking crew!
ommm: we are pleased, no, delighted to have Brenda Laurel with us
"bjorn": umeå
gaga: applause
nemo: clap clap
BrendaL: pleasure's all mine!
Elphaba: clap
"Laertes": appluse
"skejs": klap
godster: huzzah!
"aurora lovelock": clap clap
ommm: as you probably know, Brenda has had a big influence on interface
ommm: design and VR
"Laertes": callp clap
BrendaL: blush
gaga: lol
ommm: we are going to visit the sites on the right web page
ommm: to hear Brenda's topics for today, so
ommm: let's all begin by jumping around the Blue Tubes at 9.1S 3.1W -3.3a
ommm: or you can simply join me in a moment
ommm: before talking, maybe we should each put our virtual bodies through the blue hoops
ommm: if you go "into" one of the blue tubes, you will .... well, try it
"aurora lovelock": yep
gaga: those coords din't bring me here...
ommm: i'm headed into a tube!

"sgp": oh yeah!!
mjson: ok?
gaga: it's a warp ride
godster: whoa!
nemo: a slide
BrendaL: Hey that's kinda trippy!
ommm: yes, and it is indeed a warped ride ;-)
gaga: not Disney, but maybe better in its own way
ommm: someone say "Dizzy"?
godster: i've been translated!
nemo: Dzny would have a song that would lodge in your brain
"sgp": is there some proximity sensor acting?
ommm: there's an idea! we need a theme song (Ally McBeal?)
BrendaL: You guys are getting too academic for me!
gaga: lol
"bjorn": wow
ommm: sounds like Brenda is warmed up and ready to rap, go Brenda
BrendaL: Who made the blue hoop?
ommm: a student by the name of Melanie Dunn
godster: ommm
ommm: we made it together
BrendaL: Cool. So the first thing I notice is that this is like a split brain experiment. Words and picturees don't go together so easily here.
"bjorn": nod
ommm: very true
nomad: interesting point
ommm: definitely chewing gum, and walking and flying
"sgp": agreed
gaga: but time is also on your side for switching
BrendaL: What do you mean?
"sgp": can you see others 'sliding'?
BrendaL: yep
gaga: that the lag between entry of text allows for action in between, like getting a snack at the commercial

BrendaL: Is anyone here interested in spaces that are captured from the "real" world?
"sgp": captured?
nemo: does the sliding that is triggered by our av presence give us presence?
mjson: what kind of spaces?
ommm: most worlds in ActiveWorlds are bad replicas
"Laertes": waiting for your point
"sgp": i agree with ommm
BrendaL: "captured" could be in terms of shape, sound, video, . . .
"Laertes": but i turn off the sounds now
"sgp": yes brendaL, that sounds interesting, the inconnectedness...
BrendaL: I have a real problem with the geometry of made-up spaces that seem so abstract . . .

gaga: sounds like an intro for horse heaven
nemo: shall we go?
ommm: okay, everyone to Horse Heaven
"sgp": yes, should have some context, whether through flows, activity, time, something
"bjorn": all spaces are defined in relation to something in the real world - it's just a question of whether you start from scratch in building something or if you reshape something captured
ommm: go to Teleport on top menu, and in "To" box below, put 7s 7w 1a
"skejs": you loose the sense of geography here when you teleport all the time. Take your time. Learn to walk from place to place :)
godster: skejs has a point
"bjorn": but how do you know where the places are?
BrendaL: Show me the horses.
[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a node is. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.
ommm: okay, Hermes, cool it
gaga: I am next to the horses
nemo: Brenda hasn't met Hermes yet
BrendaL: Hermes is a charming individual, if a bit structured.
ommm: she's not missing a bot
gaga: lol
godster: boo
"bjorn": what colored balls?

BrendaL: So about this body stuff . . .
BrendaL: When we started working on Placeholder many years ago
BrendaL: we found that we could not walk in the first version of the world...
BrendaL: some people liked it. . .
BrendaL: especially the Las Vegas entrepreneur types.
godster: ugh
BrendaL: Finally my husband put it in the HMD and we all agreed that we were sick.
"Laertes": hmd?
BrendaL: HMD - head-mounted display.
BrendaL: So we started from scratch and used projected video on wireframes to match the landscape contours.
BrendaL: Got some 3D for free, as it were.
BrendaL: A real fun part was figuring how to fly like a bird. How would you think of doing that (interface)?
"bjorn": hmm...
gaga: arm flapping, or suspended pants...
godster: seeing from a different perspective?
BrendaL: Lots of men fly by doing hydrofoil type things with their bodies - some jump up like Superman -
BrendaL: but it turns out that everybody understands flapping except a computer with no sense of the past.
BrendaL: You have to know where a wing WAS to know that it has moved. . . an interesting problem . . .
[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a node is. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.
BrendaL: so we had to build the system a memory in order to fly.
nemo: sort of "teaching it" eh?
"aurora lovelock": memory into space
BrendaL: Yes - you are flapping, have flapped. Sensors on both hands to control acceleration, inclination of head to control direction.
Elphaba: What about bird vision?

BrendaL: Interesting - to be realistic, if you were a raptor, you couldn't see much if it didn't move.
BrendaL: In Placeholder we tried to do snake vision (infrared receptors in pit vipers).
BrendaL: I always thought compound eyes would be way cool.
godster: indeed!
nemo: are we then just taking memory/known experiences and reconstituting them here?
BrendaL: I have no memory of flying, but it's something I always wanted to try.
BrendaL: "Just reconsituting" sounds a bit reductive.
Elphaba: did you simulate wind, and drag?
"aurora lovelock": it would be nice to transform memory
nemo: transform memory sounds more like what I meant
BrendaL: We didn't do wind and drag, but we did some fun stuff to help people land.
gaga: At the end of the revised edition of Computers as Theatre, you say (more or less) thatVR is not for replicating the world better, but rather engaging with a better world How about here?
BrendaL: What do you mean, "how about here?"

gaga: Well virtual worlds are not VR, but rather something else
BrendaL: Well, Michael, I could natter on with tales from the cybercrypt, or perhaps you might be an emcee for a while ...
ommm: skejs is going to shepherd us to the next waystation..
ommm: which is vanishing brides of confused reality
"skejs": ok everyone face north. lets go
godster: ready, s!
ommm: follow skejs
nemo: is this travelling without moving?
mjson: right behind you
"skejs": now east
"sgp": how do you know what is north
"skejs": you can see the direction above the main menu
ommm: scenic tour, skejs
BrendaL: I'm stalking you...
ommm: use your shift key to penetrate walls
"Clive Warren": hello peops - someone hold my hand :-)
"Clive Warren": ok - can see you all now. This is my first time - hi Brenda
BrendaL: Hi Clive!
"Clive Warren": Mondo 2000 brought me to this place - in a round about way....

"skejs": thanks for the company
godster: we're here
"aurora lovelock": way hey thanks skejs
ommm: yippeee! we made it! thanks, skejs, you're a pathfinder
godster: what did you learn about embodiment from reconstructing aninal movement?
BrendaL: Getting into another animal's sensorium is a great way to become AWARE of having a body at all.
BrendaL: Hmm, I feel confused.
Zarko: what"s going on
BrendaL: Is it a gender thing?
gaga: or a Marcel Duchamp thing?
BrendaL: hee heehee
"aurora lovelock": reminds me of duchamps' large glass
ommm: well, these avatars served for a real-life wedding several years ago
BrendaL: did it last?
ommm: well, not exactly these avatars, -- we've lessened the avatar's solidity
gaga: do we know?
Zarko: hello everyone
mjson: dunno
BrendaL: OK, so a gender tidbit - in our research we found that women usually described VR as taking their bodies into other spaces ...
BrendaL: while men typically talked about out of body experiences ...
BrendaL: what do you folks think?
godster: i'm a brain in a jar kind of guy
Elphaba: interesting....
"Clive Warren": Hmm well I feel fairly centered in my body until I take a world view...
BrendaL: Men also seem to have greater tolerance for multiple simultaneous POVs...
"bjorn": not me ;-)
ommm: can you describe the psychological feel (of the difference)?
"aurora lovelock": i'm definitely transported
godster: bring on the chambered eyes!
Elphaba: what type of study did you conduct?
gaga: probably I feel it's like a spirit body in another space, astral projection
BrendaL: We interviewed about 120 people who spent time in placeholder, and also talked to folks who did Osmose.
BrendaL: I think it may have something to do with males being more acclimated to vehicle simulations...
Elphaba: maybe a preference for types of metaphors?
"sgp": my degree of bodiness seems related to my activity: reading, moving, scrolling, etc.
Zarko: idiots morons
"Clive Warren": Hi Zarko - bumped into you earlier
BrendaL: Hey Zarko, lightenup!
gaga: but both of those projects really used a body interface, unlike this (so far)
BrendaL: True. Do you feel any embodiment using a screen like this?
ommm: I'm partially somewhere else (on a chair near a window)
"bjorn": yes, flying around i'm in another body. just watching i'm in my own
"sgp": how does this dichotomy affect the making of virtual spaces?
"bjorn": not really
godster: no

BrendaL: Well, I think it's fun to make men stay in their bodies :-)
"Laertes": not now, but later when i think back
"bjorn": ;-)
gaga: when you sail across a big landscape, especially using shift AND control, it can get pretty heady
"bjorn": what does shift and ctrl do???
godster: my eyes, the tips of my (typing) fingers are getting a workout
"aurora lovelock": yes, but i need my own avatar maybe that would make me feel really in the space
gaga: makes you go fast through things
BrendaL: shifting control makes it someone else's problem...
"sgp": i think the environmental sounds helps to engage my body
"Clive Warren": well going up and down was fun - now how about forwards...
Elphaba: I think OnLive affords a greater sense of physical embodiment
nemo: we've tried to be more embodied by interacting w/other avs.
gaga: what's that?
BrendaL: How many of your folks have used head-mounted displays?
gaga: me
"bjorn": hands up
"Laertes": not me
nemo: For instance, I'm trying to perch on skej's shoulder
"sgp": nope
"aurora lovelock": yep
godster: fraid not
nomad: not me
nemo: nope
mjson: not he
Elphaba: yep
"skejs": here
ommm: <raising wing tip>
"foyle": me
dskog: nope
acroon: nope
"sgp": do the sony video monitor glasses count?
godster: swimming goggles?
BrendaL: They seem to be out of favor at the moment . . . yes the sony glasses count, but narrow field of view...
BrendaL: I think it's a shame that SGI et al are moving to a theatrical space (chairs, big screen) ...
"Clive Warren": same down scenario here
"sgp": yeah, i saw Jordan Crandal's piece with them?
"Clive Warren": How about the olympus glasses?
BrendaL: I think that real engagement in the space is amped by being able to use head, hands, and body...
BrendaL: just an old fashioned girl I guess.
"sgp": i imagine your right about that
"aurora lovelock": i like being on-line
"bjorn": definitely!
Elphaba: compelling content is engaging
"aurora lovelock": it's the best bit - the shared space
"Laertes": it is the social intercourse that counts
"sgp": its a big problem getting away from the window, frame construct/metaphor
"Clive Warren": Strange feeling - hanging in space and wanting to get down - feels safe though...
BrendaL: These look like transparent ladies down here...

nemo: ghostly
"Clive Warren": feel "in" the world but remote
gaga: whiter shade of pale
"Laertes": yes, they r uncanny
nemo: considering they were for a past event, perhaps a trace of memory?
"Laertes": nemo, i like that idea
gaga: interesting
"Laertes": in Rl u leave traces, not here
nemo: our chat logs are traces of memories no?
"Laertes": ok, nemo

BrendaL: What were they for?
"sgp": how does our body affect space in virtual worlds?
"skejs": anyway the brides gives you a very different experience of a passed wedding than text would ever do
nemo: someone explaine the bride's past
"italianarchitect": Hi to everybody, I'm new here (8
"sgp": should space remain static? is it static?
"Clive Warren": we change the space of virtual worlds by our presence
"Clive Warren": Can someone help me down - a ladder?
Elphaba: depends on you ontology...
"sgp": yes by filling it, but couldn't we affect its form too?
BrendaL: well, it all depends on the affordances of the world . . . like a ladder for Clive would be nice . . .
ommm: there was an actual wedding in ActiveWorlds
ommm: these are the bride avatars, several years later with transparency added
gaga: like more conventional artforms, the brides 'purpose' is perhaps more to evoke, than to declare...
ommm: and special bride avatars were made

BrendaL: It'll be more interesting when there is an actual honeymoon in activeworlds...
"Laertes": and the weding night ?
nemo: wheres the groom?
BrendaL: eaten. by spiders.
ommm: hehe, we occasionally do have to eject honeymooners during a Forum
nemo: yikes!
"skejs": where are the spiders?
[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a node is. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.
gaga: lol, you volcaness
BrendaL: Hermes, you have a nasty mind!
ommm: haha
"skejs": hehe
nemo: funny how hermes can say more then it means to
nomad: maybe we should add some semi-transparent herms to this spot
BrendaL: Michael, do we have an HMD at Art Center?
ommm: nope, wish we did
ommm: we'd love to work with HMD and / or CAVE
gaga: undoubtedly faculty could lobby for such apparatus
godster: hear hear
ommm: this is low-budget VR -- and it's online live (now)
BrendaL: yes indeedy
"Clive Warren": does the cave have a floor?
BrendaL: yep
"foyle": To my mind the CAve is an astonishing "fusion" of body experience and illusion in VR
BrendaL: agree
mjson: some do Clive
dskog: Hej Anna!
godster: well, a cave can engage a body in a new way
nemo: but what about imagination? do we "need" HMD's to willingly immerse?
BrendaL: no, it's just a rush.

"italianarchitect": THIS IS A WONDERFUL ART WORK, who is the artist?
"Clive Warren": have only seen static projections of a cave - chap came over to the Arnolfini here in Bristol England
BrendaL: I do think that the more kinesthetic the interface the deeper the involvement can become.
"aurora lovelock": it's maybe more viewer centered
Elphaba: but what about VR sickness...
BrendaL: Depends on lag and optics, not very common with good rigs.
vetunimi1: VR sickness?
BrendaL: Motion sickness, more or less.
nemo: I wonder if the involvement is deeper in a different way?
gaga: what would happen with truly convincing, kinesthetic 3D, live online virtual worlds?
"Clive Warren": how about tactile kinesthetic feedback - anyone tried out with glove feedback?
[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a node is. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.
BrendaL: Hermes!
[Hermes]: Yes, BrendaL
godster: where
[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a node is. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.
gaga: lol
ommm: lol
nemo: Are we in competition with the kind of immersion we experience in books or other things?
mjson: hehe
"aurora lovelock": this experience is very object-y i reckon
"sgp": i'm curious about where people are connecting from?
"sgp": new york
"Laertes": sweden
"ethos": maryland
"skejs": Copenhagen
Elphaba: ohio
godster: pasadena
nomad: l.a.
"bjorn": umeå, sweden
BrendaL: Mars
nemo: the computer room in accd
[Hermes]: Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California
"aurora lovelock": England - Bournemouth
godster: accd
"italianarchitect": Venice, Italy
[Hermes]: Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California
mjson: sweden x 5 i believe
BrendaL: What else can we get him to say?
"foyle": Berlin
mjson: thank you Hermes
BrendaL: Say thank you, Hermes. Now he's sulking.
vetunimi1: italy milano
acroon: Sweden
dskog: Another swede
"Clive Warren": Bristol in the sunny South West of England
"Clive Warren": sgp - anyone found that ladder? shift and down arrow doesn't do it for me!
"sgp": clive use Minus -
gaga: Quite a round up
ommm: for the last step of our journey, skejs has offered to lead us
"skejs": lets go south
"bjorn": Hermes?
[Hermes]: Yes, "bjorn"
godster: follow skejs!
"bjorn": aha!
"italianarchitect": Ciao ventunimi1
vetunimi1: ciao italiana

ommm: okay, where's skjes?
"skejs": here, let's go - its a long trip
ommm: skejs says South
godster: pack a lunch
"Clive Warren": sgp - nope just puts characters in the text box :-(
"sgp": do you have numerical keypad? use that
mjson: skejs disappeared
ommm: uh-oh, where's skejs?
BrendaL: With Hermes.
Elphaba: oops
"aurora lovelock": it's hide and seek !
"skejs": sorry, everyone. My computer crashed:(
"sgp": clive how did you move up before?
BrendaL: Did it hurt, skejs?
"aurora lovelock": we missed you skejs
gaga: they're down by the waterfall
ommm: i'm lost where's skejs
gaga: if you look NW you'll see the nodes
nomad: |skejs, do a flyby
mjson: where did he go, did he crash again?
[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a node is. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.
nomad: he's overexerting himself
ommm: okay, let's just do coords
mjson: is there a speed limit here?
ommm: 32.45S 3.0 E 0.9a
ommm: or just join me
gaga: the Cyberforum platform is the seascape in blue
nemo: glad you made it!

"skejs": where is everyone? did they get lost?
"bjorn": i didn't need to press shift to get in here...?
ommm: yeah, skejs, we couldn't find you!
"sgp": -
BrendaL: Fulfilling sense of embodiment . . .
nemo: did you know you disappeared for awhile skejs?
BrendaL: Where were you, what was it like?
gaga: are you amnesiac?
godster: were you abducted?
mjson: did you get probed?
gaga: lol
"skejs": sorry, my computer went down, I was thrown back to RL :((
"foyle": lost in cyberspace
nemo: haw haw!
"skejs": no, lost in RL
"bjorn": interesting
"skejs": come on, Brenda
gaga: must be why he's rubbing his eyes
ommm: watch this: accd
godster: what happened to Hermes?
nomad: ;you've killed Hermes
ommm: he can't hear us from this far away!

BrendaL: Seem to that good materials are the key to helping folks generate good narrative
BrendaL: but that you can't put narrative in VR.
BrendaL: Hermes is telling a story, perhaps.
nemo: Hermes!
BrendaL: Lost, O lost, and by the wind grieved.
godster: say more, brenda
Elphaba: why not?
"skejs": so the artifacts have to be good guides to make people make their own narratives?
BrendaL: Well, what would be the point?
"bjorn": why can't you put narrative in VR?
nomad: part of narrative is continuity and change in continuity like are refrain of interaction with hermes
"aurora lovelock": was/is this a narrative?
gaga: But Brenda, can you clarify for me, because lots of things carry narrative, even just by their appearance. The brides for example
BrendaL: This is reader response theory I suppose - narrative is structure - embodied folks on a stage or in a virtual world necessarily impinge on structure.
godster: we have been discussing narrative construction of space at accd
"skejs": right, gaga
nomad: impinge?
BrendaL: The brides are materials - things we made little bits of narrative from.
BrendaL: OK make fun of my vocabulary. Hermes.
gaga: what if there are other ways to define narrative other then by structure?
BrendaL: There's always tension between people who want to "author" experiences and people who want to provide materials for participants to author their own narratives by being in the world.
Elphaba: what about a "Brechtian" approach?
"foyle": Do you know the japanese "Play cinema" - Project (http://www.mic.atr.co.jp/~tosa/pc/image.html)? It tries to combine the dramatic film experience with a special VR-situation. Interesting
BrendaL: Gaga, sounds good, what other ways do you have in mind?
nemo: good point elphaba
ommm: (to Elphaba) interesting idea!
BrendaL: Why waste good VR on Brecht? If you're going to do presentationalism, you don't need immersion.
"skejs": tell more, foyle
BrendaL: How does it work, Foyle?
gaga: By association, by poetic linkage, by experience, by creating within a context, are possible alternative strategies

"skejs": why DO we meed immersion
nemo: yeah skejs
"skejs": need..
BrendaL: feeelz good
gaga: immersion = fun
"skejs": right u are
"Clive Warren": yep but don't need it to experience the world
"bjorn": if i walk down a corridor with different statues lined up against the wall, don't (can't) they tell me a story - and isn't that narrative?
godster: well, another kind of experience
nemo: more fun than other ways?
ommm: when you play, you are immersed (Heraclitus)
ommm: "time is a child playing with blocks"
gaga: the nature of symbols is to be a doorway to experience...
"Clive Warren": or a guide
"aurora lovelock": role-play can generate narrative
nomad: a chain of events in cause-effect relationship occuring in time and space is narrative
BrendaL: bjorn, you are telling the story, not the statues, right?
gaga: thus encounters with various icons, symbols archetypes...
godster: the road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom
"bjorn": no, not necessarily
BrendaL: OK, it's getting heavy now...
gaga: opens a pathway into our own memory
"bjorn": they could be very deliberately mede by an artist, say
"ethos": wouldn't some argue, however, that the reader *always* tells the story? (not that i'm sure i buy it)
ommm: on this heavy note, maybe we should call our Forum a success for the day?
ommm: we have been wearing these heavy avatars for an hour now
mjson: so can we interpret Virtual worlds as narratives?
Elphaba: what about something like Myst?
"bjorn": to show change over time (as i am walking)
BrendaL: Oh Michael, this has been fun. I want to meet Hermes someday.
gaga: And memory, nostalgia, resoantes with our internal satisfaction
"bjorn": given that there's only one direction to go perhaps
godster: well, more to discuss next time
ommm: haha, Hermes at the crossroads!
BrendaL: Thanx for the fun
"Clive Warren": notice that we are all static - well most of us - perhaps learning about utilizing movement in communication is possible
ommm: definitely more next time...
gaga: Thank you!
nomad: terrific time, Brenda
nemo: seems to me narrative is more than one means of storytelling
godster: brava!
Elphaba: thanks!
"aurora lovelock": thanks Brenda
"sgp": thank you for coming
mjson: thanks Brenda
ommm: thanks so much, Brenda, for your time and patience
ommm: and thoughts about VR
ommm: please join us again sometime
ommm: and bring your gum
ommm: we look forward to further flights with you and Hermes
ommm: and skejs (if we can find him)
"ethos": thank you
"bjorn": oh, brenda - i still have things to ask you!
"foyle": Hard to descrivbe it in few words. Move to the URL. I´ve tested it at a festival in Berlin. It`s a variation if interactive storytelling.
nemo: thank you
BrendaL: next time I will chew gum at the same time!
gaga: haha
nemo: and your wings
"Clive Warren": thanks Brenda - a great experience
gaga: your memory sticks
"skejs": thaks brenda and everyone
"foyle": thanks
godster: when is the next cyberforum?
ommm: next forum is March 11th
nemo: at 1:30 with Carol Gigliotti
ommm: thanks everyone for coming
ommm: and the chat log with pics of you all will appear in a day or two
gaga: bye bye
"bjorn": bye
nomad: bye y'all
"aurora lovelock": bye
ommm: bye all
"ethos": bye. thank you
Elphaba: great job. most enjoyable!
"skejs": please store the chat on the web-site
dskog: thanks, bye everyone
"sgp": bye from new york
ommm: bye Elph and dsk and sgp
"Clive Warren": bye everyone - you're all welcome in Bristol
godster: bye everyone!
mjson: vi ses danne
ommm: bye Clive and mj
nemo: go well!
acroon: vi ses danne!
mjson: bye ommm
ommm: and acroon
acroon: Bye
dskog: bye everyone