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* Active Worlds chat session: Sat Mar 11, 2000 7:56 AM *
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CyberForum with Carol Gigliotti on Saturday, March 11, 2000, 1:30 PM PST. See Web on right for itinerary.
nemo: "i am not posthuman!"
godster: but you sure are post post human
nemo: indeed!
sally: alright, easy does it nemo
CarolG: hi mike, How do I join again, I am on a MAc with Virtual PC
ommm: hi Carol, great to have you here!
ommm: your Virtual PC is working...
sally: hello Carol!
ommm: hi nomad, nemo, sally
sally: hello!
ommm: oh, no i didn't
godster: hi, ommm
nemo: hi ommm
nomad: Hi guys
CarolG: hello, there I am crashing quite a bit.
ommm: greetings to everyone
ommm: let us begin today's journey with our guest
ommm: Carol Gigliotti
nemo: huzzah!
sally: chirp chirp!
Elphaba: hello
nomad: Hi Carol!
ommm: She will bring us to thoughts about alife, biotech, avatars, and who knows what else!
nomad: Cool
ommm: can we all begin at point 1, which is on the right
ommm: "Basement Palace"
sally: here we go!
ommm: you can copy the coordinates or type them in
nemo: i'm going to fly there
nomad: Come on down!
ommm: the Teleport box "To" on the menu at the top of your browser
ommm: or you can simply "Join" (right menu) one of us (who makes it down there)
ommm: ah, nice spot
ommm: i like the cool blue spiked with orange

CarolG: I crawled here but I made it.
CarolG: so here we are the basement where I thought we might chat about differing modes of what we call "nature
[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a node is. Clicking the ball
teleports you to the node.
gaga: you've jiggled Hermes hot spot
"papad": Hello Hermes!
[Hermes]: Greetings "papad"
"papad": Yeau, what else, Hermes?
nomad: What is "nature" . . . or what is meant by "nature" here?
ommm: BTW, Hermes gives a talk for the mention of a magic "ism"
ommm: I don't see any nature here!
gaga: can we guess which ism that's be?
CarolG: exactly, let's talk about that nature ism' here, Why not?
"papad": hermesism?
nomad: Ah . . . natur we . . . like a moldy basement . . . ?
gaga: carolg is in another location?
Elphaba: where exactly is "here"?
CarolG: okay, what else does the nature that ism' here mean?
gaga: well, one answer is that it could be 'remote' nature
godster: nature that is out of doors
nomad: Nature must be here as much as anywhere else . . . or else it would not be nature. no?
"papad": the nature that isn't here and 'here ' is not here either
ommm: hear, hear!
gaga: sounds like jam yesterday and jam tomorrow but never jam today...
sally: could nature be viewed as us as well?
nomad: Here is not just 3n 4.6w -1.9a but where we are . . .
CarolG: nomad exactly, if we made this space, we being humans, this must be part of nature, too?
nomad: all of us!
godster: yes
nomad: Yup!
sally: yes
nemo: human nature
ommm: me and my avatar?
"papad": humans did not create nature, or did we?
nomad: It's all natural . . . but perhaps not organic . . .
nomad: or human . . . or . . .
sally: thats an interesting division, natural vs organic
sally: is that like matter and form?
sally: are we talking about "nature" that is in thought or theory vs a body organic?
ommm: does nature by definition grow & reproduce itself?
nomad: we created the artifact of culture through which we interface with nature . . . we created the word
"nature" . . .
"papad": well, a computer virus does that too
nomad: But we did not create nature.
nomad: real nature.
ommm: are computer viruses a form of life then?
[Hermes]: Who are you? Are you posthuman, post-posthuman, or just plain human? (I'll leave out
"subhuman")
ommm: uh-oh, i hit a word!
gaga: apparently!
nemo: the magic word!
godster: laws, government, and history are our nature
vetunimi1: hi ommm
nomad: The inorganic is natural too
vetunimi1: how are you?
"papad": nature has to do with our relationship to the 'us' and 'around us' - not so much with organic or
body?
vetunimi1: thanks
vetunimi1: is the meeting here?
sally: so, nature is a state of being papad?
nomad: Everything is natural . . . but what is relevant to humans about nature is our situation within it.
"papad": maybe a state of consciousness, sall
CarolG: These issues seem to me to often gather around a central conundrum of contemporary thought
nomad: Yes . . . human institutions are part of our nature.
ommm: is technology part of human nature?
nomad: We are constituted trough our artifices.
vetunimi1: yes i guess so ...
nomad: Sure!
godster: technology, si

nomad: But is not all organic.
vetunimi1: we invented tech so tech is part of us
Elphaba: not if you're Amish:)
godster: it is part of the social world we create
ommm: good point, ELph
"papad": if we regard nature the environment or body make-up, it will be rather static or "substantial".Nature ight just be on the transient side...
nomad: Humans can produce toxins too.
sally: even the Amish have some tech - wheel for instance and they take the bus
nomad: This is natural.
vetunimi1: yes Amish will have their own tech as well
ommm: is something part of your nature if you can, like the Amish, control and repress it?
sally: I wonder if we're making too much of a delineation here? tech, nature, human?
nomad: We are like aphids . . . born pregnant with tech . . . tech . . . tech . . .
ommm: then it's not self-reproducing and self-generating
vetunimi1: true sally
sally: we seem to overlap and enfold
"skejs":
vetunimi1: tech?
nomad: nested forms
sally: I don't want to be limited by "begat" nomad
ommm: wasn't Carol suggesting that this (delineation) is the basic conundrum of our culture?
CarolG: though Darwin's "On the origin of the Species" was though Darwin's "On the origin of the Species" was published one hundred and forty years ago, much of the intricacies of Darwin's thinking ". . . have not
CarolG: been reflected in our legal, economic or social arrangements" (Gessert, 2000, p.1). Much of the research informing both artificial life and genetic manipulation is based on evolutionary theory, so my
"papad": is something part of nature if you can create it?
[Hermes]: Who are you? Are you posthuman, post-posthuman, or just plain human? (I'll leave out "subhuman")
CarolG: all three
ommm: haha
ommm: good answer!
vetunimi1: yes we are part of the nature so..
CarolG: Practice and theory move at different speeds, however, and often in different directions and so my focus is on how we actually, not theoretically, see ourselves in relationship to "nature."
nomad: It is never not a part of nature.
ommm: how do we?
vetunimi1: i am a carbonated human at times
sally: carbonated?
CarolG: Also I would add a fourth I am not human only since I am also an animal, which I don't like describing as sub-human
ommm: good point, even very traditional (animal/human)
nomad: But there are lots of things that are antithetical to human life . . . our portion of the natural world . .
.[Hermes]: Who are you? Are you posthuman, post-posthuman, or just plain human? (I'll leave out "subhuman")
gaga: would you see that as perhaps transhuman?
vetunimi1: very true ommm
CarolG: Okay it was funny the first time.
ommm: haha
ommm: Hermes is a bot, should I shut him up?
godster: yes,
"papad": Nonono!
vetunimi1: no hermes is a posthuman
ommm: is that a vote?
sally: do you want to shut Hermes down?
gaga: he can't help himself, he has to act out his programming
vetunimi1: yes a vote
vetunimi1: no
nemo: no response from hermes
ommm: i'll say the magic word: posthumanism
[Hermes]: I get nervous when someone says: "we are an advanced species that overcomes inferior types who are primitive savages..."
CarolG: No, no since, bots are just now thinking about their rights
godster: yes,
"papad": I hope the bots are not voting about us, right now
CarolG: In these categories and subcategories, whatever their content, one is struck
CarolG: by how central ideas about nature and our relationship with it are to humans understandings of themselves.
vetunimi1: well truly species follow a pyramidal scheme
sally: this is getting a bit spooky
gaga: and what does he say if we say humanism?
ommm: pretty quiet now
"papad": humanism = all of the above
nomad: Yes, what counts is our relationship to nature.
ommm: yes, people today fight about nature - as in the struggle over Yellowstone Park
CarolG: I would disagree that species follow a pyramidal scheme
vetunimi1: well but it's the truth carol they do
ommm: what do you mean, vetu?
vetunimi1: we got from bacteria to mammals
"papad": I gather rather a feeling that people keep fighting AGAINST nature...?
CarolG: Those ideas are central as well to the second theme of understanding nature as both real and as culturally constructed.
godster: being a predator is part of nature, no?
vetunimi1: i mean they are from simple to most complex units
gaga: but carol means an Hegelian advance to us as the ultimate creature is not a smart idea I think?
vetunimi1: they follow a design
sally: and hence order vetu?
CarolG: A pyramid implies a hierarchal structure that puts most complex at the top
vetunimi1: yes predators are part of it
nomad: How we interface with nature through our organic and inorganic extensions into the world.
"papad": the ultimate nature might not be a good idea either. we have done a lot to tame it.
vetunimi1: if we'd miss predators we would lose balance
ptera: If anyone's interested in my own attempts to split the void and redefine the known world I have a little web page I just loaded..
vetunimi1: yes true carol
CarolG: but I am thinking of it the other way, we are so specialized while those at the "bottom" of your pyramid are so all-encompassing
nomad: Who is to say which way is progress and which way is not.
ommm: can we continue at the next node: Mondrian River?
sally: how so Carol? Virus seem pretty specialized?
gaga: good
vetunimi1: the basis of the pyramid is made by very simple beings
CarolG: Good question
sally: let's walk and talk
nemo: the dna of lilies is much more complex than human dna
ommm: walk to 1.5 n 5e 2a
ommm: can skejs lead us?

vetunimi1: viruses are the simplest
CarolG: Okay, before you all go there could someone come get me because putting in the co-ords doesn't work
"skejs": sure...
vetunimi1: just dna or rna sometimes got an envelope
sally: here I am carol!
sally: Do you see me?
gaga: I am at the spot if you wish to 'join' me
godster: lilies' dna is more complex than human dna? it is? i didn't know that.
ptera: gday there!
gaga: I see skejs on his way...
vetunimi1: well yes human dna is longer chain
"skejs": her way, please

ommm: okay, i'm here, come on up!
vetunimi1: but the functional basis are the same
gaga: what a scandal! All this time, I too a fem, that you were a male!
gaga: verb=thought
"papad": it's a lot of fun if somebody says I am "HERE"
"skejs": yes, What a scandal :)
gaga: ;-)
CarolG: I would like to focus a bit on understanding nature as both real and as culturally constructed
"papad": that implies that cultural constructed is not real?
CarolG: How can we continue to breed animals and plants, if we truly think of ourselves as not above, what George Gessert calls so aptly "the community of life."
CarolG: Must we then consider breeding better humans a natural progression? Or is the operative word here "better?"
CarolG: Better in what way, for what purpose, and for which members of the community of life?"
[Hermes]: Who are you? Are you posthuman, post-posthuman, or just plain human? (I'll leave out "subhuman")
sally: good question
godster: Nietzsche would say the human is a bridge to something else
nomad: We must consume life to live.
CarolG: Absolutely
Elphaba: we could try cannibalism:)
ommm: okay, i'm going to mute Hermes on that word "l i f e"
CarolG: Hermes I am fighting for your rights, so shush for a while? typical human reaction, don't you think?
nomad: I don't like to eat humans.
gaga: the push me-pull you?
CarolG: well I am an ethical vegan so I don't eat animals
vetunimi1: they eat each other though
nomad: Plants feel pain too!!!
sally: true vetu
vetunimi1: yes i guess so
"papad": cannibalism means to live of something or somebody else. we do that all the time
CarolG: yes, true, but if humans are on their way to something else?
ommm: are vegans committed to fighting those who insist on eating animals?
vetunimi1: are we so important?
nomad: This is our original sin . . . hmmmm?
gaga: that's what makes us different, we have a sense of conscience about us
godster: why should we be better than other animals and not eat other animals?
nomad: Well life is one of two options.
CarolG: no not fighting those but imagining other alternatives.
"papad": not eating as an alternative?

nemo: carol, what is the difference between nature are real and cultural construction?
sally: perhaps we've lost our responsibility in the way we "eat" our animals?
gaga: qi gong masters do bigu and don't eat...
vetunimi1: well we breed food animals
nomad: What can we eat that does not feel pain?
"skejs": that's a point, ommm - if we believe that we develop towards a "better" stage of humanity - does it
mean that we all have to be alike - eg. vegans?
Elphaba: we kill to survive (and sometimes thrive) in so many ways besides just for food...
nomad: We could clone our own cells and eat them!
godster: what is the difference between real and constructed nature, that seems important to our discussion
vetunimi1: that's a good point nomad
"skejs": I don't mind you not eating meat - but I still do
CarolG: The point here is not to condemn the present but to work toward perhaps alternative futures
sally: Some cultures kill w/ respect what they eat, we buy in packets, disassociated from the life that gave
vetunimi1: they use worms for that by now
CarolG: That is the main part of the problem. In terms of of biogenetics
sally: what kind of alternatives carol?
nomad: It was a joke!
ommm: can we genetically create eatable animals that have no feelings of pain?
vetunimi1: proteins of canned food are extracted from worms actually
nomad: I would rather eat carrots!
"papad": why have we come to the Mondrian River?
sally: would we be losing something valuable if we do that ommm?
sally: the question of life and death is part of eating no?
gaga: the native Americans say that if you eat food which has been made a slave, you too will become a
slave...
nomad: All life feels pain!
CarolG: I think we are on some really bummy roads, initiated mostly by corporations. i would like to talk practically about that
vetunimi1: i believe in some sort of you become what you eat
nemo: please do so
"papad": why do we go places when we don't talk to these places?
sally: do you think corpos are disassociating us from life?
nomad: Corporations are eating us!
sally: good quest papad!!!

nomad: We should eat them!
nomad: Eat the rich!
CarolG: Much of artificial life and genetic manipulation research continues to be based on "survival of the
fittest" model of evolution, one to which even Darwin did not adhere.
vetunimi1: yes fitting the environment is the start
CarolG: This reductionist stand, as most reductionist stances do, led us into areas of trouble like politically
motivated sociobiology,
CarolG: and more recently, into profound misunderstanding of the possible consequences of thinking we have total control over genetic manipulation trials.
"papad": Is Mondrian River natural or a cannibal?
ommm: maybe we should move to Helix Soup?
vetunimi1: i don't think bioengineers believe in that
nomad: Monsanto round-up-ready-humans!
sally: The Mondrian river was initiated by nature and now is corporated - a la serving as logo for products
CarolG: Mae Wan Ho points out,the process of deliberately crippled virus and bacteria to prevent their ability to live outside the lab:
"papad": a logo renders us un-natural or in-human, sally>
sally: I meant that a person - Piet Mondrian made the image which we now are in
CarolG: Are we moving again? I am sorry if I seem not be paying attention to the virtual place we are in. It is certainly important
sally: It is also the identifiable signifier for L'Oreal hair products
"papad": some of us are like this outside of cyberspace
ommm: okay, before we go to Helix Soup, I've got to try it: humanism
[Hermes]: You humans are sooooo egocentric!
godster: is it important, carol?
"papad": Hermes, you are jealous!
vetunimi1: i would rather say selfish
CarolG: Yes, because these spaces tell us so much about how we see the present and the future.
vetunimi1: i would dare say selfish
"skejs": what are the coordinates - I can't connect to the web page
nomad: Ego is human lego!
godster: does it affect you now
gaga: sally can dance

"papad": Carol, which spaces tell us?
godster: or is it negligible
sally: your pretty good too gaga
vetunimi1: all beings are selfish
Elphaba: What was Mae Wan Ho's point?
vetunimi1: life is selfish
CarolG: we are egocentric, and this such a problem!!!!!
[Hermes]: Who are you? Are you posthuman, post-posthuman, or just plain human? (I'll leave out "subhuman")
godster: not is part of our nature
ommm: skejs is going to lead us again...he has a tough job
nemo: skejs is a woman, ommm!
sally: its good to ask that again again
ommm: hehe
CarolG: Mae Won Ho's point was to say we really don't have control over nature or the universe we just
think we do
"papad": skejs is cyber-scout?
nomad: But if we were not egocentric . . . even just a little . . . we would not be!
Elphaba: haha
godster: we think we do?
sally: Mae w. H. has a good point there
CarolG: During the same last three decades, important findings on other models of evolution have emerged from disciplines such as cognitive ethology, the field studies of non-human thought and consciousness.
"papad": Carol, WHERE are you now?
CarolG: Pioneered by Donald Griffin, now professor emeritus of zoology at Rockefeller and Harvard universities, cognitive ethology has led the way in challenging
"skejs": does anybody want to walk with me?
ommm: i'm with you, skejs
godster: i'm not familiar with thinking humans control the universe
CarolG: assumptions about not only the origins and significance of human collaboration and compassion in our fellow creatures, but also has challenged the limits of non-human animal cognition and consciousness.
gaga: yes me too
nomad: I don't think I have control but I have to try . . . within limits.
"papad": Carol, WHERE is you mind right now?
CarolG: okay, me too but remember to be nice to those of us who are having a hard time walking and chewing gum.

nomad: Ethical limits.
Elphaba: animal consciousness? cool.
nemo: i'm at helix soup!
CarolG: Good question, My mind is at some really strage place between internal thought and trying to communicate with those of you embodied being down there in Pasadena and those others wherever they are
gaga: skejs how about calling out a heading?
"papad": ok, carol, then back to the important question: WHERE are YOU?
"skejs": I'm 'here'!
CarolG: I am as usual distributed through the world
ommm: fun trip, skejs, i was a bird with a flock
nomad: We need to negotiate the limits of our power.
"skejs": you don't always have to take the straight way..
nemo: this is a good place to speak of genetic modification
nemo: with the helix form
sally: and evolution?
CarolG: Just so! As we merge those constructs of our human nature, machines, with other parts of our "nature," how do we go about setting priorities that do not assume our role as caretaker, but as equal participants in a larger scheme?
nemo: good question!
sally: perhaps by not assuming that we are the sole caretakers?
ommm: (to "skejs") give me your email address and i'll send you some great shots of you leading the troupe
over here
CarolG: I believe these difficulties stem from our Western culturally inherited views towards nature and ourselves that conflict or constrain movements towards what we might see as the intrinsic value of nature.
nemo: but what is meant by merge?
gaga: yes, when we insist on control and command, we can only do so at the cost of others' participation
godster: if you capable of changing the temperature of the planet and thereby its weather are your really
just an equal?
"papad": the Helix Soup is a little like Mondrian?
Elphaba: can you explain that Carol?
nemo: ditto
sally: equal in the sense that others may and will affect our lives as a result of our action gaga
nomad: I am not willing to give up what little power i have so fast . . .
CarolG: If we are to develop from an understanding of our paradigm of an interdependent web of life including both humans and nature as equal participants, we must redefine the meaning of equality,
sally: I meant godster
CarolG: in much the same way that social scientists and theorists have been redefining what it means for varying races, ethnicities, and genders to be both equal and "other."
gaga: bingo
CarolG: We are a unique participant in the web of life, but then so are our fellow participants of any species.
"papad": is there an equality between non-sames?
nemo: where does "merging" with machines come into this?
nomad: So what about eating?
sally: perhaps event the word "equality" is directed too much towards the hierarchical?
sally: even I mean
CarolG: We didn't get to the last place Green Place and we are almost out of time. i apologize for not talking about the virtual world here /there
CarolG: Only because I am new to the space and like to be utterly quiet when I experience something new
ommm: okay, well, let's wind up now at the Green Arches for a finale
vetunimi1: i think the web is the past
"papad": how did we get out of time? That concept is new to me?
sally: Don't we occupy a web of differences?
vetunimi1: and that virtual worlds are the new way a portal thru the time and space
godster: can you say anything, carol, about the experience of talking, chewing gum virtually?
nemo: don't forget to announce next forum, and follow-up discussion
nomad: Should corporations be equal partners with humans too?
"papad": common, don't be shy. You haven't been quiet all along...
"skejs": heading north
sally: speaking of nature carol, I have to say
sally: I felt as if I saw you being "born" into this world
CarolG: well I am not very good at it in "reality so I am not very good at it virtually either. But that clumsiness with the world is sometimes an asset. it makes me notice things from different perspectives.
sally: two days ago when you came here for the first time
godster: what did you notice?
sally: carol at first held only to the line of sight that was in front of her
sally: Then learned to move her body to see
"papad": inexperience and clumsiness are our most fresh asset for perception. keep it!
CarolG: Well that there seems to be the same coordinate system here that we have accepted as "truth" in the West.
CarolG: also I feel so distant......
"papad": come close!
CarolG: OOOOOO
sally: I felt that way to for a time, but the distance shortens as we visit here more often
"papad": good, now you are walking!
sally: alright!
CarolG: Oh nomad they are beings unto themselves these days.
vetunimi1: there are no distances here

vetunimi1: there is no time here
sally: true vetu - I think we imagine it
nomad: hmmm . . .
godster: synchronized time
"papad": so, why then the coordinates?
sally: much like we imagine time elsewhere
sally: good q papad - what does it mean to have directions here?
"papad": yes, and absolute positions
vetunimi1: yes this comes straight inside our brains without passing the filter of our common senses
ommm: whew! made it! that was hard!
vetunimi1: straight inside
sally: perhaps b/c we think in this way?
godster: vetu, not straight inside
gaga: carol, positions are: what?
ommm: join me to do it the quick way
sally: maybe we need to think another way?
"skejs": far from the coordinates - a trap?
CarolG: Absolute positions are so hot
sally: you look like a wind chime godster!
"skejs": carol waits for us on 7s 15e
godster: thank you
sally: perty!
"papad": do I lift my legs for moving up the green thing?
gaga: it's funny, because there's apparent talk of rejecting hierarchy, position, direction and all for equality,
but from a design perspective, structure is Useful!
ommm: you can try, papad
ommm: nice view, huh?
nemo: interesting, gaga!
CarolG: That was fun
ommm: don't we design with up and down as inherent values?
"papad": let's discuss that hierarchy thing when I 'm on the top of the green stairs
ommm: hookay
godster: getting down is good
ommm: did you get to the arches Carol?
sally: are we all back at helix?
CarolG: yes we do but also it is our physical reality so we incorporate that
sally: we need to go to arches for the big finale
ommm: Join ommm at the arches
ommm: it'
"papad": the tour guide is being paid on tour fulfillment?
ommm: it's the big Walk at the End
gaga: as in tag, you're It?
"skejs": Bye Bye I'm out of here, thanks for everything, going to the movies, Galaxy Quest
sally: have fun!
nomad: we may one day be able to interface with nature at a subatomic level where time and space are
indistinct, in the same way that we can alter this virtual world at the script level.
gaga: have fun, never give in, never surrender
sally: funny gaga!
CarolG: Thanks everyone!!!!
ommm: well, Carol, we have wrapped you in our world for over an hour
godster: THANKS, CAROL!
ommm: we owe you our thanks
ommm: for the stimulation about evolution and humanism
[Hermes]: You humans are sooooo egocentric!
"papad": Thank you Hermes!
sally: thanks carol Hermes
"papad": the bus back is waiting?
sally: what about our finale?
vetunimi1: thanks carol
nomad: all worlds are virtual worlds because all worlds are mediated by the very flesh that gives us life in the real.
ommm: oh! sorry!
sally: Thanks Carol
gaga: thank you for your patience carol, and Hermes thanks you too...
nomad: Thanks Carol . . .
ommm: we realize you've been struggling for us there on your VPC
ommm: we appreciate it!
sally: She's gone
nomad: It's over already?
sally: :(
ommm: thanks Hermes
gaga: elvis has left the building
sally: before you knew it nomad
nomad: :(
sally: we didn't get to do our big show
sally: We'll have to do it at the roundup
ommm: oh, that's true
ommm: well next CyberForum is on March 25th
ommm: with Lev Manovich
vetunimi1: nice meetings congrats very creative
ommm: and today we inaugurate our open message board
ommm: to receive any further ideas or comments after the talks
nomad: Ok . . . I will be there . . . this was fun!!!
sally: Its interesting that these spkrs are not all
sally: versed in living in virt wrld
gaga: I gotta go too, but recommend a trip to see Mission to Mars for some related issues... don't read the
reviews
vetunimi1: what is the open message board?
ommm: just click on the link on the right-hand page or
ommm: go to www.mheim.com/cyberforum to find another link
vetunimi1: ok
vetunimi1: thanks ommm
ommm: the message board is for your comments and afterthoughts
godster: ciao, vetu
"papad": I don't click because then I don't know where I go :-)
sally: good bye everyone. Its been virtual
ommm: bye bye all
"papad": I have waited for this, Hermes
ommm: lots of wit and life here, thanks
ommm: "humanism," Hermes
"papad": naturally!
vetunimi1: thanks ommm
godster: bye all
ommm: ciao
vetunimi1: bye godster