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* Active Worlds chat session: Wed Feb 9, 2000 1:21 PM *
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MikeH: hi godster
godster: Ommm = MikeH?
MikeH: yes, Mike Heim = MikeH
godster: are we ready for some action?
"Lisbeth": yes
nemo: yes
"Paul": Yes.
"EvidentMan": Howdy everyone.
sally: howdy, evidentman
godster: hello EvidentMan
godster: love your av MikeH, don't think I've seen it before
MikeH: this avatar is called "Gurdjieff"
"EvidentMan": I'm having a little trouble moving toward you. Am I having a connection problem??
MikeH: Evident,: you might just hold down the Shift key while you move -- that will allow walk through things
"EvidentMan": that does it. Thanks!
godster: Tobey just arrived. Simon is setting her up
"comfortably numb": Hello! Hope I'm not too late!
"Lisbeth": IT University, Denmark, and you?
"EvidentMan": sally, you're a lovely dancer
sally: thank you sir
"comfortably numb": mj, ya here?
mjson: Comfy!
sally: hi, cn
"comfortably numb": MJ!!!!!!
"comfortably numb": HI sally!
"comfortably numb": hello everyone!
nemo: hi cn (its simon)
sally: good to see you again
"fidel": Good afternoon everybody!
"comfortably numb": hey simon! long time! how ya been?
MikeH: hey fidel
godster: Hello fidel
nomad: yo fidelio
"EvidentMan": Howdy, Fidel!
"comfortably numb": you too, sally! :)
"fidel": Well mike what's the plan?
"Desney": Hey guys... New in here... What's the plan for today?
"EvidentMan": yeah, we need a plan!
"Desney": Plans are great... NO agenda type thingy??? :)
MikeH: okay folks, welcome to the second CyberForum
MikeH: today I will talk about "The New Memory Palace"
MikeH: Can everyone see the numbers on the web page on the right?
"Desney": Yes... :)
nemo: yep
MikeH: please don't click on anything yet
acroon: yes
"EvidentMan": to self: must not click. must not click...
godster: Y
"fidel": no
"Esco": yes
nemo: what discipline, Evident!
"Paul": yes
MikeH: the numbers are steps in our walk -- let me explain
"Desney": Kewl...
MikeH: last week, some members of the Forum discussed the relation of movement to talk in virtual worlds
MikeH: it was a most stimulating discussion
"Desney": Are the logs of this somewhere accessible?
"fidel": In the archives?
MikeH: log archives from last week are available at www.mheim.com/cyberforum/archive.html
"Desney": Thanx.... Will check it out after this... 
"EvidentMan": to self: must not click, must not click...
MikeH: hehe
MikeH: or you just click "To" on the Teleport menu
MikeH: and put in the numbers you see at right of the screen
MikeH: the easy way is to just click on the link
"Desney": Kewl. Works for me... :) Links don't seem to work for me... But anyways I can get around is a great way... :)
nemo: others can always join
MikeH: let's try the first location, the waterfall
"Esco": alrite! good work everyone
"Desney": Thanx sal...
godster: we did it yay!

MikeH: glad you made it!
MikeH: this waterfall suggests the flow of thoughts
MikeH: and the changing states of memory
MikeH: the memory palace is an ancient device
MikeH: the memory palace was a series of rooms 
MikeH: used by orators 
MikeH: to memorize their speeches
MikeH: each room connected the mind with a set of symbolic objects
MikeH: that reinforced the topic
"Paul": Question: Did we actually move in this virtual world or did our perception of the world change?
godster: how do we "move" paul?
"Paul": Good point! It's just a perception of movement isn't it.
"EvidentMan": I'm stuck, too. The Open" dialogue wants to know what I want to open it with. I have no idea...
"fidel": We have to establish an ontological point of reference
"Desney": Human mind deals with movement and sequences well tho... That's what makes it so powerful
"LateComer": 4444
"Paul": The reason I ask is that the avatars around me made the "move" along with me.
"Laurie McRobert": Hello Mike
"fidel": Like cues
"Esco": i c
MikeH: the original meaning of "topic" is Greek topos or "place"
MikeH: so each place was a place in memory
MikeH: what i thought after reading last week's chat log
MikeH: was that we need to reverse the memory palace model
MikeH: instead of memorizing our speeches through virtual places
MikeH: we could use virtual places to imprint memory impression of topics
MikeH: so today, for instance, we begin with the Waterfall of flowing ideas
MikeH: and liquid concepts
"Desney": Reverse the model... 
"Laurie McRobert": I hope I am not interrupting. This is my first attempt at dialogue in live cyberspace.
"skejs": hi
"Esco": ah, i get it
"fidel": Like this gay in Luria's book?
MikeH: now we will walk outside of the waterfall 
MikeH: into the narrow path right outside
MikeH: you can follow me or
MikeH: you can click on the link number 2 for narrow path
MikeH: oh, don't forget to hold down Shift to get through the water wall
MikeH: okay now we can each walk the narrow path to the end
MikeH: use 3rd person if you want to see the cute avatars walking
MikeH: at the end i will explain the meaning of the path for my talk today

"Desney": Very kewl... Spatial memory is powerful... If we could somehow control the use of it....
"skejs": great, I love it
"Desney": let's go... :)
nomad: nice changes in scenery
"Paul": I made it without the shift key?
"fidel": ehj,skejs
MikeH: cool, Paul, that's not easy!
"fidel": Like a trip in the forest
"Desney": So here's the question... Will people that do not walk the path but teleport lose the point?
"skejs": I like your walking style, mike
"Paul": Don't know what I did.
"EvidentMan": many years of playing doom and quake have finally paid off.
nomad: lol
"fidel": games for life
Immigration Officer: You are being joined by clack.
"Desney": Seems like a good part of memory palaces was stored in the transitions from room to room
nomad: I am here, watching you guys approach!
"EvidentMan": to self: no fragging, no fragging...
"Desney": If I don't have the path, but teleport, is something lost in my spatial cognition?
nomad: like, is it the journey, or the destination?
"fidel": after you
Immigration Officer: You are being joined by godster.
"skejs": it's so cool walking with u m
Immigration Officer: You are being joined by sally.
"Desney": Yeah, I don't relate spaces when I teleport... But I form a mental map by walking from place to place.
nemo: indeed, des
godster: talk and walk is difficult
Immigration Officer: You are being joined by mjson.

godster: I feel like a babe
"Desney": hahahha! IN V-Land it is... :)
Hypatia: escalators to eternity
"EvidentMan": oh yeah? well my avatar's chewing gum, too! :-)
"fidel": like in rl goodster
MikeH: we're nearing the end of the path
"fidel": ups in rl
godster: we're all in various vrl ages then eh?
"fidel": sound dramatic
"Desney": I have to go now, but this is interesting... Mind if I view the logs later and mail you with comments/further discussion?
"fidel": vrl?
MikeH: okay, climb on the island here with me and let me explain the Narrow Path
MikeH: when I explain "virtual realism"
MikeH: i often refer to a narrow path between network idealism and naive realism
MikeH: between the "let's upload ourselves to the Web" and "I won't touch a computer"
MikeH: virtual realism is the middle path not because it is mediocre and the trend of today
MikeH: rather, virtual realism is the difficult middle road of harmony
MikeH: where we each need to balance the virtual with the real
MikeH: and we have to go this path day by day each on our own two feet 
nomad: lol
MikeH: just as it's difficult for our avatars to walk straight here
MikeH: so it 's difficult to walk with balance every day
MikeH: my imbalance right now is to slouch toward the computer screen
MikeH: -- i'm just now correcting this as i thought about it
MikeH: my real body needs attention and health maintenance while my
MikeH: virtual body lives here for an hour or two...
MikeH: this is our second step in the Reverse Memory Palace
"skejs": if u follow Latour, its not a question of balance btw real and the virtual
"skejs": because how can they be parallel universes 
"skejs": don't they ever meet?
"skejs": I feel very much that they do
nomad: parallel lines never meet
"fidel": remember breathing -- that's a good point
mjson: 20 ppl simultaneously correcting their posture all over the world
"skejs": for instance, in my breath, thanks fidel
godster: ha ha he he
MikeH: the virtual and real meet right now if you glance at your chair and the way you sit toward your monitor
nemo: my back hurts
"Desney": Distinct and yet co-existent
MikeH: time for a stretch
"fidel": interface ?
godster: I talk out loud to you all. what does that mean?
"fidel": the bodily interface
MikeH: is not the virtual inside the real universe?
MikeH: network idealists believe the real fits inside the virtual 
MikeH: that's certainly a wishful idealism
godster: like a subset?
nemo: hmmm
"fidel": is me?
"Esco": very true
comfy: I feel as if I've lost my identity here... my av is gone :(
MikeH: let's talk now about realists as we visit the "realism" of the garden (number 3 spot)
comfy: hey! found it!
"fidel": I see your thoughts comfy
comfy: i'll clam up now
"fidel": ergo you are
godster: are we reading minds fidel?
"Esco": the virtual is definitely in the real universe
MikeH: can you join me at the garden (it's not far from ground zero -- just straight ahead and to the left -- it's above the waterfall we visited
MikeH: so you could hit the back arrow (upper left) and then fly up (Plus Key)

"Esco": virtual
"fidel": tekst=mind
"EvidentMan": hmm, which way is "straight ahead" in this cockamamie universe?
mjson: here we go again
"EvidentMan": am I here or am I lost? Time will tell...
MikeH: welcome to Jinhee's garden
MikeH: Jinhee was an early student builder who
MikeH: wanted to replicate the real world in her section of our world
"fidel": Gives interior dec a new meaning
MikeH: all the other students wanted a more abstract fantasy world
MikeH: but not Jinhee
MikeH: let's take a brief tour of her garden to see how other students protested
MikeH: and tried make her garden more fantasy
MikeH: can you see this bird bath?
mjson: yup
MikeH: well, originally there were several signs here in English
MikeH: and the other students removed the signs
MikeH: because they seemed too literal
MikeH: BTW, those birds in the bath are not actually avatars
godster: all the ebirds are perched and drinking ewater eh?
"fidel": Hej lisbeth
MikeH: they're just models without users
"EvidentMan": what about jinhee's property rights? We need virtual lawyers!
godster: uoh
MikeH: Jinhee's property was seized by a mob of builders
MikeH: who wanted a "visual identity"
MikeH: you can see the same issue in CyberTown (Blaxxun browser)
MikeH: you need permission to change things for the sake of a uniform "visual identity"
godster: that sounds a bit like the suburbs
"Paul": suburbs . . . conformity, all the same
MikeH: now let's see what virtual realists 
MikeH: have done to bring fantasy instead of realism 
MikeH: we now go to the Purple Cloud (ethereal)
MikeH: come join me at point 4
acroon: I Like this real stuff!
"skejs": its so exciting
godster: oooooooo!

MikeH: spend some time going inside the purple structure
MikeH: explore its corners and shapes
Immigration Officer: You are being joined by clack.
"EvidentMan": let's see...insert Tab A into Slot B...
comfy: I dig those blinking green lights on the er.. roof thingy over here. verrrrrry neat!
godster: Exploring this space as a group is different from seeing it solo
"Esco": very abstract
"EvidentMan": godster, in what way?
comfy: definitely, godster
godster: the exchange w/ others makes it more of a presence to me
nemo: em--scale seems very different
MikeH: yes, it's an abstract shape without real-world reference
nomad: with lots of ppl in it, the space seems more spacious, more capable of sustaining public life

comfy: shared experience... makes it more tangible, more real...
godster: hearing everyone talk in the space and about it makes it more real to me
godster: even in RL, I need this reflection by others
"Esco": it does resemble the entanglements of life
MikeH: true Esco
MikeH: abstract fantasy can get INSIDE of life
MikeH: okay, now we move to step 5 where fantasy connects with function
MikeH: join me or hit number 5 where we go to View of the Trumpet
clack: come join us Paul
"Paul": Sorry, trying to work and keep up at the same time.
"Esco": instrument holding worlds
mjson: oops, some people took a dip into the physical world (crashed)
"Esco": different virtual worlds existing inside an instrument is a strange concept
MikeH: you can also arrive here by menu: Teleport, To, ACCD, then hit the yellow ball (Trumpet View)

nemo: worlds as notes
nemo: nodes
"Esco": yea
nomad: the microscope, the telescope, the kaleidoscope...?
MikeH: the view looks at the functions of Ground Zero (arrival point) for this world the colored balls at the Trumpet's mouth take visitors to various nodes of the world
MikeH: so the Trumpet is abstract shape (with connotation of musical notes) plus function of transportation to a variety of experience nodes
MikeH: so here is the blend of realism (function) with fantasy (idealism)
MikeH: this is the central or middle path called "virtual realism"
"Esco": yes....
"fidel": Worm-holes
"skejs": unfortunately no tones
Hypatia: i like, it - reminds me of a pseudosphere also... virtualized hyperspace
"Esco": strange how the worlds are at the bell of the trumpet
"skejs": the trumpet sucks you into cyberspace?
"Esco": like notes arriving at the bell from the mouthpiece
"Esco": originating from the lungs which are from the inside
Hypatia: with a distinct absence of the proverbial "staff"
MikeH: neat image, skejs
MikeH: BTW, it was skejs's comments during last week's Forum that gave me the idea of a Reverse Memory Palace
nemo: bravo s!
MikeH: I hope the actions and locations have helped imprint some ideas in your minds / hearts
"skejs": I enjoy it so much
MikeH: we have one more node and that is about the body
"fidel": Yes indeed
"Esco": yes
MikeH: we will now jump to the Lumen node (number 6 on your web page)
MikeH: you can join me or click on the 6th link on the right
"EvidentMan": fascinating
godster: speaking of the body. what do you think about the fact that I can never see my av's face?
godster: In 3rd person mode, I only see the back of my self
comfy: you can never see your own face, either
"skejs": mike is scratching his head, godster - good question
nomad: In another world, I saw a turn script, which lets you see yourself
comfy: true to rl
godster: But at least I have a mirror
"Paul": Gotta get back to work folks. See you next time.
godster: bye paul
MikeH: please walk around here and look at the bodies of other avatars
MikeH: stay within the luminous area
MikeH: then i'll give you my rap on this topic (topos)

nomad: ciao
"skejs": danish
comfy: go and face somebody w/your av on, godster... virtual mirror :)
"EvidentMan": to self: don't color outside the lines, don't color outside the lines...
godster: yeah, I'be looking at clack
"skejs": yeah, you?
MikeH: some avatars you choose will allow you to "Hasidance" (derived from Hasidic dancing)
MikeH: if you hasidance, and if you choose 3rd person viewpoint (End key), you will be able to see your avatar's face
MikeH: (don't try this in RL)
comfy: hehehe yes, but hasidance makes me fall apart! :)
comfy: lol!
mjson: heheh
godster: true. But can i only see myself in a state of joy?
MikeH: hehe
nomad: always one can only see themselves in state of joy!
"EvidentMan": or if you're beside yourself
comfy: shiny, happy people dancing... o/~
nomad: lol
godster: good point!
"fidel": how do represent a state?
godster: I see you acroon!
acroon: hehe
"EvidentMan": do those of you who are dancing feel any lighter, any happier?
"fidel": ups, how to represent a feeling in vr?
comfy: yikes, looks as if my av has a bit of a list to the left...
"skejs": only tourists don't know the dance of the natives
"fidel": funny, anthropologists of VR
mjson: lol skejs
mjson: they should rename tourists to anthropologists
MikeH: to say a few things on this topos...
MikeH: this node was originally built to explore the extreme of perception where the eye perceives maximum luminosity
MikeH: light with minimal objects
MikeH: this extreme situation (difficult, or impossible to achieve with current AW graphics)
MikeH: offers a tiny glimpse into the limit situation of the body and its perception
MikeH: here you can here we can also see the "material" weight of our avatars set into relief by the sheer textures of light without objects
MikeH: against such a background we appear weighty and vividly present
MikeH: or perhaps not light enough for this fantasy node of great purity
MikeH: we are "meat" even as computer graphic presences

"fidel": Mass, represented by light frequency?
"skejs": If you move outside of this illumination, it actually looks like a huge eye
godster: thats what I thought too skejs
"fidel": look there's the retina
MikeH: some people believe the computer systems will free themselves from our human bodies
MikeH: that we will not be needed by computers, neither as people nor as avatars
MikeH: other people, like myself, believe that we must affirm the presence of our human selves
MikeH: inside these computer systems and that avatars are our way of claiming technical system FOR human function and fun
Hypatia: macro to micro and back again
"EvidentMan": hey, Mike, fidel and skejs went outside the area of luminescence even though you told them not to! Where are the hall monitors when you need them!
"Esco": that's a scary notion mike
"Esco": we do or AI will take over
comfy: do you mean like AI, MikeH?
"fidel": the q is whether we need computers that don't need us?
"Esco": yea
MikeH: so, i hope you have all had as much fun today as I have on this tour
"Esco": yes we did
"Esco": thanks a lot mike
"skejs": very much
nomad: very nice tour
"EvidentMan": Yes! 
"EvidentMan": Mike, are you thinking of "self" as the same as "body" in what you just said??
MikeH: yes, i think of "body" as companion of "mind" -- as inseparable
MikeH: we have tried to meditate on each node as a place of thought
godster: I feel as if has been a bit of a turning point for us
nemo: muchas gracias!
"Esco": we should have more of these conferences
comfy: Thanks so much Mike!!!!
Hypatia: thanks Mike!
"fidel": Yes this is the best session I've ever joined
comfy: This was great!
Padraic: thanks
"Esco": are they're gonna be more of these conferences?
nomad: the next conference is the 26th, right, godster?
"EvidentMan": thank you so much, mike! And likewise to the rest of you.
"fidel": Using the media to reflect upon it, great
"Laertes": sorry being late, got into accd as before
godster: I believe so - please check the web folks
MikeH: hit "About Cyberforum" for future Forums in this series
"skejs": like virtual is companion of real - inseparable!
"Esco": k, bye everyone
sally: thanks mikeh and all
godster: Good bye. Thanks MikeH for the party
acroon: Thank you !
MikeH: thanks for coming, and if you want to ask questions, i'll be here for a few more minutes
MikeH: a log with pics will appear in the next week -- lots of good shots of you folks!
"fidel": see your thought's MH and all of you on another occasion
"Laertes": looking forward to it
MikeH: i'm going to go into another area now for questions because this light hurts my eyes...
nomad: lol
MikeH: i'm going to ground zero in this world (just re-enter ACCD to find it)
"skejs": Mike, my experience of this is actually not very virtual - in the sense not-real
"skejs": how can u explain this as virtual - unreal
nomad: BRB
comfy: my class this semester is about Identity in lit... more specifically, what comprises identity, how to create it in our work... I suspect we'll probably be approaching some of these same topics about body/mind connection
"Laertes": sorry being late tonight c u next time
MikeH: to skejs, Do you know people who think you are unreal for spending so much time on computers
comfy: I know people who think I am... :)
"skejs": well i put it on the edge saying unreal - nobody really says that - but virtual yes, which is...what?
MikeH: well, those people tend to be naive realists
MikeH: they tend to believe that the five senses alone deliver "reality"
MikeH: and anything in media is less real, more "made up"
MikeH: virtual at its best is the blend of real-world functionality and fun fantasy (supported by computer systems)
MikeH: virtual is "nearly real" or actually better, enhanced reality
"fidel": Any new books since Metaphysics of...?
MikeH: fidel: click on the green image in the upper part of the web on the right
"fidel": thanks
MikeH: that books explains "virtual realism" as a concept
MikeH: more recent work ties the concept to a design approach, as we've seen today
mjson: oh, a commercial break :)
"skejs": right mjson
MikeH: http://otal.umd.edu/~rccs/books/heim.html contains the latest update on the tie-in (Jan., 2K)
MikeH: it's a response to a review of the book (commercial break here...)
comfy: Well, time to run.. but thanks so much for the talk! it was great! let me know if you want some help putting the pictures & log online...
"fidel": augmentative reality that's fascinating in the aspects of how hidden the media becomes and how we come to rely on it!
"Laertes": late now, bye all, c u next time 
MikeH: bye Laertes
acroon: bye laertes
MikeH: and i have to go too, time to get to class (first into a car on the freeway!)
acroon: Bye and thanks again!
"skejs": I cant wait to see u all next wed
"fidel": Drvie safe
MikeH: thank you all for coming and for your attention
comfy: see ya'll later!
"fidel": asta lavista
"skejs": we are really getting socialized
MikeH: next time we meet on a Saturday
MikeH: bye, bye