******************************************************** * Active Worlds chat session: Sat Mar 25, 2000 1:19 PM * ******************************************************** CyberForum with Lev Manovich on Saturday, March 25, 1:30 PM PST. "Laertes": what do u mean, mania, when talking you say "what cinema is about"? mania: cinema touches us in more ways than conveying visuals, Laertes "Laertes": ok, elaborate, please ommm: go, mania, go mania: simple: if you compare the formats of human expression (from cave paintings to virtual worlds) we always have a visual element. Yet it's not the same ommm: we will have to ask Lev (he's coming any minute) what he means by the analogy between digital cinema and painting LevM: Mike, I am here. Lets roll! vetunimi1: digital arts and 3D computer arts are really effective ommm: glad you could make it! ommm: ladies and gentlemen, i'm happy to introduce Lev Manovich ommm: Lev has joined today us today to discuss digital media and their pre-history sally: welcome, lev "Laertes": (applause) vetunimi1: welcome LevM: hi dudes - sorry to be late -- had to install some software which is what always happens ommm: we have already begun talking about his "Digital Cinema" article ommm: let's begin by traveling down to the Waterfall to stare at pixel flow ommm: Waterfall will help us think about moving pixels ommm: join me ommm: or use the coordinates on the right page ommm: 3.8S 1.9W -0.6a
mania: oh, my screen helps me to think about moving pixels, too ommm: please put your nose (beaks) up against the waterfall ommm: let the cool blue float by you LevM: so what shall we talk about ? ommm: Lev, why not talk to us about pixels in digital media and how we can link them to history - film or otherwise LevM: Sure. Even more than film, 3D chatting environments are full of codes and defaults LevM: If in film acting conventions are already rather standardized, here we take a next step -- with your actions and "emotions" coded in the interface vetunimi1: the use and development of design inside cyberspace? LevM: can you elaborate? mania: my responses may be coded in the interface, how are so my emotions, Lev? LevM: I take it back -- maybe there are not emotions, just actions like in a myth or a fairytale LevM: the interface also exemplifies how computers allow for the automation of culture mania: we call that pre-program choices or lack of true interactivity LevM: meaning -- you get a complex behavior just by pressing one button ommm: at this moment, Lev and I are Redman avatars and we have been doing "Happy" (jumping) LevM: And this how computerization works in general - by automating functions you get efficiency but give up control mania: or doing one stroke on the canvas, that is? LevM: exactly! LevM: If you don't mind, I keep switching avatars to use the system to its fullest ommm: cool! mania: so, how do you compare the complexity of ACTION to the one on VISUALIZATION?
ommm: nice formulation of trade-off: efficiency / loss of control LevM: By visualization you mean how things (and people ) look in this world? mania: no, the visual truth of paintings. If you like to assume that LevM: In general, digital media is characterized by different degrees of realism which coexist LevM: so here you can rather complex behaviors (although they are pre-scripted) but schematic graphics ommm: can we move now to the Lumen area? A rather Unreal aesthetic... "Laertes": would you say that u can measure realism in 3D worlds? LevM: lets go ommm: 1.5 n 5e 2a ommm: or join me
ommm: whoops, we're not there yet, hold on... ommm: okay, join me now LevM: End of enlightenment -- at least, its rather dark here LevM: Just noticed -- there is a happy button but not unhappy button LevM: Mad is available (if Prozac does not work) ommm: haha LevM: This MUST be 21 century -- we are not even having sex ommm: sounds like a motto for virtual worlds: "Mad" is available if Prozac doesn't work" LevM: Which is what cyberspace is for ommm: hang on, Lev, we've had visitors like MidNight Toker nemo: hehe ommm: but this is, after all, Eduverse vetunimi1: what do you mean .. this is ..after all...Eduverse? LevM: This is the problem with Academia - they don't know about Prada either ommm: well, vet, AW has different behaviors in general than Eduverse, i think vetunimi1: which different behaviors? vetunimi1: ID and educational difference? sally: more genteel in Eduverse and older citizens probably LevM: This is quite a nice world vetunimi1: no i don't think here there are older citizens LevM: Of course being an old 20th century avant-gardist I always like non-realism vetunimi1: yes the world is almost creative nemo: lev, what do you see as the historical basis for a world like this? LevM: I am still not sure if it has some representational references. Does it? ommm: what do you think? ommm: or better, what do you see? LevM: I prefer that it did not
vetunimi1: if it has some compares? LevM: its groovy nemo: ?? vetunimi1: groovy? LevM: I like its minimal quality. And also that it has a strong 2D pattern, so it is almost not 3D nemo: that is an interesting point, lev sally: well there is a torsion between 2D and 3D in come nodes like this one LevM: I was hoping that people would attack me etc LevM: Come on lets have a fight ommm: okay, we have a rather horrible place to show you, one that is "realist" nemo: the crudeness of the 3d rendering here (lack of occlusion, for example) makes it much more graphic nemo: lets rumble? ommm: we have a gallery that tries to import paintings, just for you, Lev....;) LevM: YES vetunimi1: realism has its important role also LevM: What painting? De Kooning? ommm: okay, folks do your karate on Lev LevM: Rubens? nemo: well, we could talk about useful analogies for design sally: maybe the difference between realism and nonobjective is less important now ommm: sally? ommm: nice kick, Lev ommm: are you going to take that sally? sally: well, i'll fight \ LevM: Yes. In facrt given all the push for 3D worlds and VR over many years, very rarely people try to discuss WHEN it is better to have 3D nemo: good issue! LevM: Of courses it serves the industry, supporting companies like SGI nemo: when does another dimension benefit? LevM: I think that in a way it takes us back to the past, to the 19th century, flaneur etc LevM: Search engines do not work in 3D LevM: Modern GUI (and VR) were conceived when people only had a few dozen files on their hard drives LevM: 3D is not an efficient way to deal with information when you have a lot of it ommm: before the log pics get even more embarrassing (rumble?) let's go to the well-behaved Gallery vetunimi1: maybe better than discuss could be to apply and lead ppl to its use? ommm: 30N 7W -5.0a ommm: or join me
nemo: this gallery is such a lame space! ommm: indeed, that may be its claim to significance! ommm: this node is still loading for me, very slow today nemo: here is a space of 2d pictures--how does it feel? ommm: yes, here is a series of paintings, photographed and then reduced to JPEGS LevM: What are the pictures nemo: paintings LevM: Why??? ommm: and then wrapped on panels and imported into this desktop 3-D LevM: ??? LevM: WHY??? nemo: the paintings were influenced by avatar worlds vetunimi1: yes ...this is true nemo: but there presence here is debatable ommm: the originals were several inches thick on the walls LevM: Why shall we bring our tired boring commercial and prosaic reality even into cyberspace? sally: we are in the other side of the gallery vetunimi1: because we shouldn't this is my answer nemo: good point ommm: you can see on these two panels the thick paint reflected in the photograph vetunimi1: we should develope far different things in cyberspace Immigration Officer: You are being joined by LevM. ommm: you have to move in pretty close to see it nemo: the question remains, which analogies from the real world should we incorporate into our worlds? nemo: and which should be abandoned? LevM: Good question, excellent! ommm: here's one with strong texture (toothpaste oils) nemo: in this world, we find spatial analogues somewhat useful . . . ommm: the painter, Cole Case, spoke of "layers" of networking nemo: but functional ones less mania: ok, guys, we got stuck at the Lumen. Laertes is still there. Anybody can pick him/her up? Not a citizen. nemo: most functional analogies don't apply ommm: okay, we might as well move to the final "Memory Chamber" and pick up Laertes there ommm: 12.4S 8.9E -6.5a
LevM: I find its encouraging that maybe 1/3 of our interactions deal with communication itself nemo: why? LevM: and that we can actually have a KIND OF a dialog ommm: true, dialogue is a heavy word for this lite environment nemo: is this different from what you expected, lev? LevM: Its better mania: they should be here in a sec nemo: are we in the midst of a background change? It's like an eclipse ommm: (to nemo) yup LevM: STILL LOADING? ommm: yes, the effect here depends on slow loading mania: laertes is here? i have a feeling he/she's still stuck somewhere else, even though moved to Memory Chamber. Anybody any idea? ommm: like the whispers of memory vetunimi1: i did nemo: this space depends upon the crudeness of single sided rendering nemo: for its sense of surprise ommm: i'll try to fetch L. ommm: brb mania: thx, Ommm vetunimi1: we may whisper to him vetunimi1: ok nemo: we also have a surprise spherical space LevM: It is a little hard to develop anything in depth here -- but "Laertes": gave mania instructions for teleporting fun "Laertes": teleporting LevM: I would like to refer you all to my article "Navigable Space" on my web site nemo: will check it out! ommm: URL? vetunimi1: yes LevM: http://visarts.ucsd.edu/~manovich mania: navigable painting? vetunimi1: thanks nemo: hmm LevM: It is about the history and aesthetics of computer navigable spaces LevM: including flight simulators, Aspen Movie Map, artists works etc LevM: I also try to understand the prevalence of a first person perspective (as used in computer games and motion simulators) nemo: how is flying as a mode of navigation? nemo: some find it odd LevM: flight simulators of the 1970s-80s paid for development of 3D CG technology and naturalized the idiom of flying through space using first person perspective ommm: interesting nemo: what about the lack of horizon line? LevM: We can also think back to 1920s LevM: when many European artists and filmmakers made a fetish out of the mobility of the camera ommm: yes LevM: people like Moholy-Nagy and Vertov ommm: Godard? LevM: No, Godard is different. ommm: how? LevM: In fact Godard is completely anti-computer LevM: Meaning that he is about montage ommm: interesting...explain LevM: and there is no montage in new media ommm: didn't you refer to montage in Myst? LevM: Montage is replaced by compositing, morphing, continuity mania: no montage in new media? interesting! vetunimi1: why no montage? LevM: No, Myst is also a first person POV, a continuous navigation ommm: does montage depend on non-immersive eyes LevM: ?? nemo: continuous perspective? mania: how is compositing different from montage - besides that's a different word (no definition discussion, pls) ommm: does the notion of immersion require 1st person POV? nemo: continuity of pov? LevM: We have to define immersion...but probably the answer is yes mania: nope, Myst is change-of-frame navigation, not continuous. Only animation is. vetunimi1: this 3D is not immersive ommm: so if immersion requires 1st POV, then immersion could not support montage? LevM: By montage I mean shift from one world to another which creates MEANING. Two shots add together to create a new meaning LevM: this does not happen in new media and the effect is more of ADDITION ommm: who creates the meaning? the auteur? sally: so continuity would not allow montage mania: that sounds like a definition of hyper textual structure "Laertes": dialectics is missing in 3D? nemo: immersion based on continuous, not discontinuous sense data? LevM: For instance, here we go from one world to another world but they are not juxtaposed LevM: Yes, exactly, dialectics is missing from 3D. nemo: especially if we walk ommm: interesting "Laertes": ok, interesting LevM: sure mania: that's a mere feature yet missing. Can be done vetunimi1: what do you mean juxtaposed technically? sally: you mean we cannot have the pleasures of discontinuity in "new media"? LevM: There is lots of discontinuity but it does lead to pleasure vetunimi1: a teleport can be seen as a juxtaposition can't it nemo: hmm LevM: For instance web surfing going from site to site mania: btw, Laertes and I were just parallel at a different place, interweaving the two active log files. sounds like montage to me "Laertes": yes, why not LevM: I would not call it montage nemo: ah LevM: How shall we call it? LevM: DRIFT? LevM: drift? ommm: nice word vetunimi1: drift? ommm: lots of drift here in these worlds, like the drifts of conversation... nemo: hmm ommm: not fixed purpose or meaning...but meaning and purpose are immanent vetunimi1: no you can also have a given path in cyberspace mania: you mean to say that montage is visual parallelism not one of meaning LevM: yes sally: making meaning, experiments in making meaning sally: in 3D ommm: let's take Lev on the Star Path to conclude this wonderful drift nemo: sure LevM: OK vetunimi1: sure mania: Ommm, you are a buzz word fan! ommm: buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ommm: i'm going to ground zero and then to the Star Path beginning where we can walk/fly together "Laertes": the coordinates, please mania: I don't want to get lost again, my numeric motion does not work. Any idea how to walk over there? ommm: 23.1s 11.1w 1.0a LevM: Imagine a system which will try to interpret what you are saying (AI) and change your avatar in real time ommm: now we follow the stars ommm: in the path
ommm: (to mania) find the path? vetunimi1: nice ..impressive mania: nice navigation exercise, good for the finger fine motorics LevM: Having structure to this event as well a spaces helps a lot vetunimi1: this is very nice ommm: we call each place a "topos" for each topic
LevM: Good LevM: I feel here like a character from "Tron" LevM: YES YES YES sally: what are your affirming, LevM LevM: UNIVERSE LevM: SOFTWARE LevM: LOVE LevM: BANDWIDTH LevM: content -> technology sally: content becomes technology? "Laertes": time is getting late, folks, going to bed soon "Laertes": thanks for thoughts on dialectics and 3D, Love vetunimi1: the technology to build a concept LevM: It is rather great here, I feel sleepy and alive at the same time
ommm: okay, Laertes has to split, thanks for coming sally: bye, laertes nemo: bye laertes! LevM: THANKS LevM: BYE DUDE "Laertes": see u all gain ommm: cu L. vetunimi1: bye! mania: don't get lost out there, laertes! sally: sleepy and alive at the same time, in this particular space or the whole accd? LevM: Just here ommm: mania, what time is it in India? mania: 4:27 am LevM: There is some poetry here, which begins to emerge (maybe at least %15) LevM: this is "poetry" LevM: My final question sally: where is the poetry? LevM: Shall we desire "depth," complexity," LevM: "poetry" and all the other traditional. things from new media? LevM: Or shall we welcome it as it -- pure interface LevM: pure technology with humans stuck to it mania: can you make you guess cryptic? nemo: hmmm vetunimi1: yes sure ..also we should desire anything related to the human being, i guess sally: some elements of traditional expression will continue as imagination takes new forms nemo: does "pure interface"=shallowness? LevM: Sorry... ommm: isn't this up to us as artists ... to take over these machines and do something with them? LevM: Can interface itself be poetic, as opposed to functional? sally: sure vetunimi1: yes sure it is ommm nemo: i believe so vetunimi1: technology is far enough but design should be implemented mania: that's what this world here investigates ommm: we cannot control the boxes, but we can play with software.. LevM: BUT: maybe we should accept IT as it. Raw metal ommm: but the metal conceals a system vetunimi1: the interface should be alive ..And give sensations mania: ommm, the good news: box-control is under way LevM: In 1913 Duchamp took his friends to an industrial show in Paris LevM: He showed them a propeller and said: "from now, painting is dead" nemo: so, interfaces make propellers dead? sally: painting didn't die mania: up to the spot, nemo sally: although Duchamp had a big influence on painting a vetunimi1: painting may change but will be still the basis of 3d technology nemo: how does the Duchamp story relate to your thesis that digital media is more akin to painting than photography, lev? vetunimi1: good tech + bad design= lousy 3d environment ommm: i'm looking forward to studying the log, this has been fascinating LevM: thanks everybody for your questions sally: thanks lev for your questions ommm: you've given us a fascinating perspective, Lev LevM: I like the asynchronous nature of this LevM: out of sync quality ommm: your knowledge of film history gives us much to ponder ommm: as we study the log files nemo: thanks, lev! looking forward to a continuing dialogue! sally: out of sync is a kind of discontinuity i like in these worlds of chat LevM: because we are all our of sync anyway and this medium simply visualized this better mania: Yes Lev, but that's always has been the interesting quality ommm: very true LevM: So I would like to wish us all LevM: HAPPY MIS-COMMUNICATION LevM: Chaos ommm: it's a multi-tasking experience ommm: thank you, Lev!!! sally: thank you lev nemo: bye to all, lev, omm, ven, sal, mania! ommm: bye bye nemo sally: by ommm ven, nemo mania vetunimi1: bye mania: why mis-comm,Lev? Can't see the beauty of this structure? ommm: bye sally, and bye-bye mania in India vetunimi1: thanks ommm: ciao mania: ok, back to bed vetunimi1: ciao ommm: sweet dreams ommm: virtual world dreams
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