Apr 12, 2000 1:19 PM * ******************************************************* Immigration Officer: Welcome to the CyberForum world from Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California coach: hello Bill Mitchell WJM: Hello ... I'm here! gaga: Hello Bill! coach: welcome, Bill Mitchell! sally: hello WJM: Good to be here -- Wherever "here" is. gaga: Glad you could come!! coach: how's the tech working on your side, is everything loading? WJM: Looks good to me. Digigardener: welcome Bill WJM: Hi coach: hi Digi Digigardener: this is Bruce Damer from the Contact Consortium, finally making it to a cyberforum! Digigardener: Wouldn't miss this one for the world coach: avatars are filing in..great to have you here Bruce Digigardener: thanks, Mike WJM: Avatars assemble more punctually than my MIT students. coach: haha... telepresence is more tenuous and requires punctuality?? WJM: I think that's right. You have to count on something -- either time or place. nomad: Hi Hermes, guys . . . sally: hello, all coach: SigAlert: we have an av pile-up at GZ Hermes: Hi! I'm just a "bot" avatar, so don't ask me too much... mjson: hi Hermes, don't be too hard on yourself! coach: Hermes (our bot) has quieted down recently - he was rated "too gregarious" burp: The west coast does produce all these traffic metaphors gaga: There is a kind of pile up at the entry point eh? WJM: Makes me homesick. Pathetic, isn't it Digigardener: that stands for Mr. Sigmund former employee of Caltrans burp: Are you from out here? coach: doesn't that kind of radio make you tense? it does me...i just picture being in that pileup as I hear it reported gaga: well, nostalgia can make us think traffic was a fun time WJM: I lived for fifteen years in Santa Monica burp: that makes for a strong identification... coach: a sweet place for sure
Digigardener: i am up in santa cruz in the redwoods burp: lucky you! Digigardener: but i lived in eagle rock, sherman oaks, and down near USC so I know LA well nomad: Redwoods nice . . . gaga: YES "Grendel": hey there, Digi! Long time. :-) coach: i just went to beach an hour ago, just to remind myself of vast, refreshing spaces Digigardener: hey grendel, well i had better shut up so they can get on with it Digigardener: you are all welcome to visit the "digital garden" here in santa cruz WJM: Give my regards to the 405 "skejs": hi everyone gaga: hello skejs! coach: haha..what time of day? even 10 AM is getting bad... sally: hello skejs burp: I saw five deer on the side of the 405, just nibbling away in the shadow of the Getty, with a never mind to the traffic Digigardener: ah yes, sepulveda pass, could hardly get over that in my 71 VW van! burp: yo skejs mjson: hej skejs "skejs": so long time, I almost got to miss you Digigardener: so Bill have you been into avatar cyberspace before? WJM: I haven't been in this one. Just getting used to navigating Digigardener: just today there was a session in Boston on the architecture of cyberspace. in fact it is still going on Digigardener: at the Boston Architectural Center mjson: what kind of session digi? WJM: I think this avatar needs a wider range of gestures. Nice bow for greeting would be good coach: yes, we are planning a new generation of avatars Digigardener: called: Virtual Realty: Design and Architecture for Virtual Space organized by Warren Wake gaga: try changing your avatar WJM, go to avatar on your menu bar coach: the "Special" avs aren't yet working right mjson: something written somewhere? WJM: I see. I'll try a few avatars -- see what I like gaga: Shall we get started coach? coach: yes, it's time we start our structured journey coach: first let me say Big Thanks to Bill Mitchell for braving our CyberForum WJM: ok coach: and taking time from his busy schedule nomad: Hi Bill! WJM: Delighted! nemo: yay! coach: we are thrilled to have such a distinguished 3-D thinker with us today Digigardener: honored "skejs": thanks for coming nomad: yes. gaga: welcome nemo: indeed! "emerald": greetings coach: to get started, you can see, from the right-hand panel, that we will look at this very entry space from a different angle, we will click the yellow ball to get there or, you can use your Contacts list and right-click on "coach" (moi) and "Join" - Are you ready? "emerald": where's the yellow ball? coach: the yellow ball is floating in front of you when you first enter accd world
Digigardener: wow a pretty abstract space you have here ACCD! WJM: Nice place you have here! gaga: the trumpet looks a bit like a light bulb eh? WJM: BIG light bulb Digigardener: sure is.. Indicative of great ideas to come? nemo: we think of it as a trumpet! coach: Bill: in your work you write about street front metaphors in virtual space coach: the Trumpet entry with its floating balls is the correlate we developed to your notion of "street fronts" WJM: Very apt coach: do you find these entry points disorienting? nemo: good question! WJM: No. The entry points look good vetunimi1: hello mjson: it's different from most GZs in that it's unidirectional sally: hello, vetuni vetunimi1: hi nomad: You don't need streets or even grand entry ways. mjson: hi v1 nomad: Nodes can be nested in each other. WJM: Do you know Kevin Lynch's book "The Image of the City?' Good on the legibility of 3D environments Digigardener: many ground zeros use "real world" metaphors of streets, hallways, doors sally: we prefer orbs nomad: Sure . . . and grass and blue sky too. coach: haha.. sally: worlds within worlds nomad: orbs are fun! mjson: Lynch's book is very good
WJM: Distinctive landmarks are pretty important. Also well-defined routes of travel, I think Digigardener: we have held tradeshows and conferences in this environment over about 2 years and found that we really had to stay close to conservative metaphors to guarantee legibility nomad: But you have a choice of other organizing systems. sally: reducing a sense or horizon and of perspective makes the space more immersive gaga: legibility? or orientation? nomad: No? coach: isn't there a difference between immediate and acquired legibility? gaga: I agree coach nomad: Perhaps . . . WJM: You probably have to start with conservative metaphors. But I doubt that we have to stay with them permanently coach: i mean, it takes a while to learn navigating this world nemo: indeed, coach! burp: Digi, I think you agree that accd works, yet is quite different in terms of its legibility for 3D space [Hermes]: Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California vetunimi1: nice college nomad: You mean a soft selllll . . . ? Digigardener: it is true that restricting people to moving along a ground plane is a conservative first steps but constricts your design space coach: Hermes is a parrot... vetunimi1: as far as things are distant to real worlds as more difficult the legibility will be i guess mjson: software comes with 'expert mode', maybe these worlds should too? coach: the POV for avatars here is programmed according to flat horizon, it seems.. WJM: Don't forget that sun and sky play a bit part in conserving legibility in physical space. They are crucial. We have to think of the equivalents in this environment nomad: Not always . . . sally: perspective is off putting, declares a space as other nemo: so what would be equivalents to sun and sky in vws? coach: yes, earth and heaven for the human body... burp: if cyberspace is more like deep outer space, or deep oceanic inner space, then we could be Jaques Cousteau or Armstrong gaga: I like MJ's idea Digigardener: yes, until primates have developed generations of living off-planet, we are pretty oriented to an earth/sky system vetunimi1: what do you mean expert mode? nomad: The way people transact will be conditioned by the place(s) they inhabit. gaga: In the ocean there is a disorientation Digigardener: in here it is: ground plane and panorama.. one problem in this environment is the dreaded Clipping Plane coach: why 3-D? why should we develop online 3D, as you see it? mjson: perhaps parallel ways of navigation... vetunimi1: surely the 3.0 is giving more legibility also in Eduverse WJM: It's important to think of peripheral cues. Sunlight on your back, etc. We probably need more sensory modes than just visual nemo: good, good! Digigardener: yes sound cues are great.. nomad: We already move through hyperspace in our minds. Digigardener: take Traveler for example that projects voice in stereo and attenuated WJM: 3D opens up the possibility of architecture, in some sense gaga: But are we necessarily after modeling the real world? sally: more peripheral cues makes sense to me nomad: That is the first form of virtuality. burp: this becomes the haptic interface challenge nemo: haptic and sonic nemo: sound is an efficient means of communicating space and immersion Digigardener: boy Bill and now you confront another property of this medium: conceptual bombardment! nomad: Virtual architecture is a kind of filter. burp: lol Roberto: yeah I see hehehe WJM: Don't forget thermal cues. You could do a lot with some digitally controlled radiators nomad: 3D virtuality is not the only kind. nemo: and yet,digi, sun on the back does not increase my cognitive load! Digigardener: is there an emerging practice of architecture in cyberspace? What about the work of Marcus Novak et al? coach: our topics are moving us toward the TRON node, so i suggest coach: we hop worlds now and go to the TRON node in the new VWD world WJM: The justification for 3D is really in the quality of the architecture. We haven't seen our Corbusier of Cyberspace yet Digigardener: good point . . ok to which world? WJM: Off to Tron! coach: you can use the coords on the right, or click the dark green ball at the bottom of your view here on the Trumpet view (I'll fly down there)
Digigardener: just join coach folks Digigardener: i see said the blind man coach: i'm going to click the TRON disc, here we gaga: i just have a blue screen Digigardener: woooow gaga: Am i missing out? nomad: Cool! mjson: give it some time gaga coach: it may take a minute to load Digigardener: bill do you know about out of body view? WJM: Decon Tron!!! coach: some might have video card overload! nomad: I don't like to see my av. Digigardener: i am doing some gestures for you bill sally: don't look, nomad gaga: I'll leave and come back in here Digigardener: this is a part of the human architecture of these worlds WJM: I see the gestures
Digigardener: karate kick Digigardener: sorry oooomp Digigardener: the famous macarena Digigardener: moonwalk Digigardener: you can switch between third and first person view by the Home and End keys on your keyboard burp: am I seeing this? WJM and Digi are kicking each other in the shins! How professional! ;-) Digigardener: or the buttons on the toolbar coach: haha WJM: You should see faculty meetings here! mjson: somebody get a camera coach: return to medieval disputatio! Digigardener: if you press End several times you will "rubber band" farther out into the 3rd person burp: no changes in typeface in Tron: Tron the great equalizer sally: pulling on beards too? coach: haha nemo: and served spiked sherry, wjm! Digigardener: so you can get the perspective of the whole space coach: lol gaga: i'm still blue screen sigh. gaga: i'll have to get a look at school coach: yeah, the textures here challenge some video systems (like mine) vetunimi1: yes d/l Digigardener: Bill are you there? WJM: I'm here burp: WJM? WJM: Yes nemo: this space is a bit hyperstimulating. i miss the sun on my back! coach: WJM: so how far should - can - we stray from RL geography? WJM: Indeed. And breeze in my face gaga: I'm blind! coach: Do we want to go "inside" the computer? or do we want to feel "somewhere else"? Digigardener: that’s why i live on a "farm" WJM: I don't think it's a matter of real geography. Just multiple sensors modalities nemo: the moving textures make a moving pov a bit painful! Digigardener: i have to muck stalls mjson: saves your av a sick bag though gaga gaga: lol Digigardener: bill if you size your window larger you will get a more immersive effect WJM: ok nemo: a herculean chore, digi? Digigardener: large rectangular (landscape) views produce the best effect Digigardener: you can click and hold on the frame borders and drag them out gaga: do you think its b/c we're used to that size and shape digi? burp: I don't find it to be that overwhelming; I like the rhythmic pulse of the space, like dancing walls Digigardener: glad you found a PC to run this on, university folks are often on Macs nomad: Makes me want to dance. mjson: not something i'd want in my bed room though WJM: looks good when more immersive. One way to get a more vivid sense of place is to get more physical. Like riding a stationary exercise bicycle through this space. Much more fun! Digigardener: hey in a few years this WILL be your bedroom burp: were you trying to sleep in world? (wink wink) nemo: hmm, engage the body for navigation Digigardener: now that is a point, like those gym trainers nomad: DATA WALLS Digigardener: it is amazing how people do produce immersion in the conversation for example.. nomad: Digital paper. gaga: like in Matrix nomad? Digigardener: after a while are you looking only at the text chat area? or is the world still in your visible horizon? WJM: It helps to have a relationship between physical effort and movement. Going uphill should be harder than going down, etc Digigardener: you are immersed in dialogue or immersed in visuals? nomad: No . . . you will have a choice . . . I hope . . . Digigardener: this is a split reality in this sense gaga: but doesn't that just maintain the way we see now? WJM? "omy": Its just hard to move full stop gaga: Isn't there a possibility of expanding our senses? nomad: The life world will still be here, and we in it . . . WJM: No. We have to take account of our bodies -- whether in physical space or cyberspace Digigardener: in the Onlive Traveler world, avatars are giant heads lip synching live voice so your focus is entirely in the world space nomad: but we will be extended into places like this too. Digigardener: facial expression is so important to apes coach: Onlive = talking heads in a hot tub "omy": Its really a kind of symbiosis nemo: lol! burp: lol Digigardener: and our avs here notably are lacking that
WJM: Imagine a reverse gravity cyberspace. Easier to move uphill, harder to move downhill nomad: I wish I had a face. gaga: true Digi Digigardener: hey i love hot tubs! nemo: yes coach, a bit too '70s! nomad: and fingers too. Digigardener: well that is done a bit in Titans Guild' Ski Hill coach: before we leave TRON, we might use the Fly up/down keys (Plus / Minus on the numeric keypad) Digigardener: over in the AWuni, you can ski up and down slopes Digigardener: yes indeed Digigardener: and don’t back up bill as you will fall off this ledge! gaga: but what’s the point when you can do it in RL? Digigardener: bill are your plus and minus keys working? Digigardener: on your keypad with the Numlock OFF burp: I've flown up, but I can't get down... "omy": -+ nomad: I wish we could use these spaces to visualize information from the life-world. Digigardener: if you are jammed against something just hold down SHIFT coach: yes, you might get stuck on something... Digigardener: that allows you to pass thru coach: SHIFT may not work here, the builders shut it off -- mjson: join someone on the inside burp gaga: how so nomad? Digigardener: i am running version 3.0 mjson: here in Eduverse? nomad: To see what we can not see in the real, but that is in the real. Digigardener: oops sorry , not yet "omy": stuck on the other side! mjson: ah, thought you were cheating :) Digigardener: well where to next coach? nomad: Using the virtual to see through the real. gaga: microscopic ? Nomad? Digigardener: hey dont pass thru WJM nomad: The whole shibang! Digigardener: have some respect "omy": xray glasses coach: our next stop will give us some "physical" exercise coach: in exploring large structures, skeletal architecture and wind chimes coach: nice if you have sound plugged in coach: our WindChimes are in ACCD world Digigardener: we are only in the "keystone cops" era of virtual worlds .. sigh gaga: I feel left out. All I have are triangles coach: you can use the Back arrow at the upper left of your screen gaga: too true digi!! Digigardener: you are enjoying a different reality gaga! coach: or you can simply Join "coach" in a moment coach: are you ready to transport? Digigardener: yes indeed nomad: I like the black triangles . . gaga: ready coach: once we return to ACCD world, we will hit the dark ball with gold stripe at the Trumpet coach: we are going back now to ACCD Trumpet, see you there in a minute nomad: ok [Hermes]: Hi! I'm just a "bot" avatar, so don't ask me too much... coach: okay, i'm out here now at the side view (yellow ball takes you there) Digigardener: has bill got his sound on? burp: a number of us are in place already coach: the next node we visit will take a minute to load, so be patient before you move Digigardener: i am here gaga: in ready position! burp: you can join if you like coach: okay, the dark ball with the gold stripe takes you to the WindChimes "foyle": Wind chimes? coach: you can see the WindChime ball from GZ in the right corner of the Trumpet; it's hiding a bit .. i'm going to click it so i got to WindChimes gaga: oooooooOOO! I like the sound mjson: the bells the bells
gaga: They kind of remind me of the installation by Jennifer Steinkamp at Art Center right now coach: if you have sound, you can hear the chimes WJM: Yes, got the sound WJM: Wind chimes are weird without wind coach: we need to move through them nemo: indeed! gaga: they’re chimes .. no wind Digigardener: these are more like Oldfield's "tubular bells" sally: electron chimes coach: do you see the blue structure yet? mjson: it's like having your own minimalist interactive musical box coach: when you see the blue structure, you can move toward it through the chimes Digigardener: kewl WJM: Got it burp: So while we have avatars with no bodies, and wind chimes without wind, isn't there a lot of charm and merit worth consideration? "omy": I reckon we create wind with our wings gaga: it "feels" big here coach: down the center of the blue structure WJM: Absolutely-- lots of charm and merit Digigardener: nice work ACCD Digigardener: is someone getting screen shots of this event? sally: i've taken a couple Digigardener: quite dramatic
burp: by which I am not fishing for compliments for the team, but wondering what IS here that we like? mjson: anna? är du här? gaga: I like the immense feel of the blue structures, the lattice provides depth nemo: yes Digigardener: these events are going to be seen as historic experimentations WJM: There's a genuine sense of architectural space and progression here. Bravo! Digigardener: that’s a real compliment coming from Dr. Mitchell! nomad: Did anyone here see StarTrek the Movie, when Spock enters Veger? nemo: thanks! coach: we're just beginning to experiment gaga: Hey! The music changed! mjson: yes nomad Digigardener: we have a special interest group for architects in these environments, are you a member? gaga: Does the music change here when you move to different spaces? Digigardener: could sure use more dialogue like this in VW-Arch! nomad: It will never be enough . . . WJM: I just had to reboot. Lost the dialogue. Sorry "omy": from where I am I can't see your avatar forms gaga: WOW it does!!!! coach: no prob gaga: This is so interactive!! coach: we now move to our last node, which is a journey called StarPath burp: If architecture in the real world must respond to the body, but it is not required to here, what then is its true Virtues for c-space? coach: you can reach it from GZ entry by clicking on the golden textured ball coach: or by using coords on the right or by joining nomad: This is our stomach . . . liker the big robot, Veger. nomad: Everone is going? coach: when you join me at StarPath, let's all please wait a moment and fly together, it's a long journey and you can get lost coach: is everyone ready to go to StarPath? gaga: shall we follow like ducks in a row? nomad: oh. coach: all right! many of you beat me to the spot! Digigardener: yup nomad: I like the star path. Digigardener: this flashing path here? sally: this is navigation time WJM: What are the blue flames? mjson: you haven't star trekked before you've tried this nemo: the key to the star path is to go fast! Digigardener: you need to do a bump teleporter along the path coach: the small yellow flames are the path... coach: follow the "yellow star road..." nomad: Cool! coach: let's go slow so we can stay together Digigardener: i see nomad: Oh . . ok . . nemo: go fast! Digigardener: hard to stay on it gaga: you sound like a kid running away nemo nemo: its like landing a plane sally: don't give up digi sally: get some momentum Digigardener: if you use the shift + left or right arrow Bill you slide to left or right this will help you align "on the runway" gaga: feels like a racecar nomad: Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Digigardener: wowowow sally: digigardner, use first person and then page up and turn right endlessly Digigardener: where are we? Digigardener: ahhh in the surreal dome from Avatars99 time coach: we're at the end of the StarPath, at the Dazzle Dome sally: you have to see the apex nemo: this is the cyberforum platform sally: when it's twirling coach: come inside the speakers pod Digigardener: nice work again ACCD nomad: Come with me! sally: it's a little too sixties, digi for you?
WJM: Dazzle Dome is great! coach: this is the speakers area where we hold many of our discussions Digigardener: sixties? well would that not be psychedelic, like Pollen world? coach: it is inside the Dazzle Dome at the end of the Star Path "omy": like being inside a Christmas bauble nemo: yes, omy! Digigardener: hey can we do a group photo with everyone lined up? Digigardener: is this not the last cyberforum? WJM: It's better than the Y2K dome in London gaga: I feel like we could coronate someone in here coach: so we struggle with the issue of how much fantasy and how much real-world reference we need.... sally: hmmm, whom should that be? WJM: I think cyberspace is a republic nemo: and with issues of coherence gaga: its a bit of an aviary at the moment sally: a republic? Digigardener: ah yes the power of textures in our world coach: yes, coherence or looseness (nodes) burp: So, just as we got flying off, I asked you what role for architecture in the 'absence' of the 'body"? To paraphrase myself "omy": oh dear here we go mjson: and what kind of fantasies to evoke gaga: shouldn't that be omy "omy?" WJM: I think coherence is a completely different issue from real-world reference
"omy": where are the republicans? nomad: It is not a republic . . . it is a mall! nemo: how so? sally: back off, nomad Digigardener: i think we are entering an era of scattered reality Digigardener: so cyberspaces like this one play into that "emerald": how do you experience coherence in cyberspace WJM? nomad: Well it's true. "omy": its anarchic and that’s why I like it nomad: It could be a republic! nomad: It should be a republic!!! nomad: But it's not. coach: is this a programmed anarchy? gaga: Yes, How do you experience coherence WJM? "omy": phew! WJM: Code is the law Digigardener: Rome did not do too well as a republic Digigardener: (after it was built that is) gaga: Coherence is through code? coach: yes, we are building on a programmer's vision (or perspective) "omy": the law is code nemo: very cryptic, wjm Digigardener: are you paraphrasing gibson or stephenson there Bill? gaga: yes nomad: The code could be more open. WJM: I think music shows us how to experience coherence. The old cliché says that architecture is frozen music Digigardener: is this the Metaverse folks (rah rah, not again!) "emerald": what does coherence feel like to you in cyberspace ? WJM: This is snap-frozen music
gaga: good question emerald Digigardener: yes the walls are not evolving "omy": like printed code? burp: the body (physics) is not the law, but code runs the show, in nanoseconds nomad: Transparent, and upgradeable. Digigardener: of course the worlds of the www.biota.org project are all about dynamism, biotic behaviors and evolution nemo: wjm, we have found that analogies to architectural function tend to break down in cyberspace, but not analogies to space. Perhaps music has similar authority. nomad: That's a good idea nemo! nomad: Music . . . . nomad: Hmmmmmmmmmm . . . WJM: Yes, analogies to function do break down. But architecture's concern with abstract spatial structure remains relevant "omy": bring on the wind chimes of software nomad: Yes Digigardener: well we all have a lot of work to do.. but folks.. Digigardener: consider when you have ten foot flat panel wall screens for displays, it will change the whole experience WJM: Memorability is key. If you can't clearly and vividly remember a space after you've left it, it probably wasn't any good
nomad: Architecture is the orchestration of space? Digigardener: good one nomad nemo: good evaluative test, wjm gaga: sometimes its the experience in the space that recalls the memory of place coach: do you see many initiatives today for cyberspace architecture? If so, where should we look for further inspiration? WJM: Yes, it's the organization and orchestration of space. But not necessarily materiality nomad: Space is what for us now? Digigardener: and this is a unique property of virtual worlds.. over and above the document metaphors of the flat web Digigardener: you can draw in and from memory burp: exactly Digi Digigardener: we have a special interest group for cyberspace architects over at the consoritum mjson: in the text you mentioned the garden website, could a digital garden make us care deeper for a virtual world? gaga: good Q mjson Digigardener: its called VW-ARCH and it has a list, if you want to join that see www.ccon.org/lists Digigardener: we have a garden world at www.biota.org/nervegarden burp: there was of course the telegarden where people watered from afar etc, but I take it this is different? gaga: To care - does that imply maintenance or interest?
WJM: It's terribly hard to escape from thousands of years of architectural tradition, but it can be done. You have to invert the metaphors -- as Corbusier did in "vers une Architecture." Digigardener: yes nerve garden was inspired by telegarden in 1995, so you grow plants in a cyberspace world (l-systems) nemo: thanks for giving us courage, wjm! mjson: and life? gaga: we are just on the cusp of many things to come nomad: what is materiality now, when even physicists are talking about an informational substructure to matter/energy? Digigardener: yes indeed, that is why this area holds my interest "omy": come back in fifty years and point out the trees you planted? coach: yes, we have to thank our speaker WJM for joining us today, and or the inspiration of his work Digigardener: gosh will all this code run in 50 years? burp: was my though too D gaga: But with the progression, aren't we always on the cusp? nemo: huzzah!! Digigardener: i think we are pioneers here, and I trust this work will be remembered burp: applause WJM: It's been a lot of fun "emerald": thanks WJM and hosts. great dialogue. "omy": cheers! sally: thanks wjm gaga: Yes, thank you for taking the time Digigardener: glad to have you mjson: clap clap clap gaga: flap flap flap flap coach: thank you everyone for coming on the journey Digigardener: gestures folks nomad: Thanks bill! Digigardener: jumping mjson: good session today "omy": flap flap flap nomad: Yes. burp: come again, see how we progress Digigardener: a pleasure coach: and next week at this time we have final RoundUp which will be a series of riffs from the panel on each of our sessions. Hope you can join us for the riffs and sifting through all the Great Hits Digigardener: hope to! gaga: see you all later! mjson: bye gaga nemo: bye! nomad: By! sally: adieu nomad: e coach: bye all burp: are we saying goodnight Gracie? Digigardener: avatars2000 mid october coach: see you later and again! mjson: bye "emerald": ciao. "foyle": bye
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