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* Active Worlds chat session: Wed Feb. 2, 2000 1:42 PM *
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ommm: hi folks and welcome
godster: Hello Ommm!!
ommm: hi godster
"UCLA Media Arts": are all birds characters from art center? Is our avatar moving by itself or do we have control - we seem to keep checking our watch!
godster: Yes. And yes, they do that "naturally" 
ommm: why don't we go around and introduce ourselves while Peter Lunenfeld gets settled...
godster: ok
ommm: how about if i ask one-at a time? let's start with nomad. 
nomad: Hi, I am Matthew Sloly. I am an MFA student at Art Center
PeterL: Hello everyone, I'm just getting settled in (to be honest the first thing I have to do is run over to my seminar room and put on some tapes for the students). Being a bad parent, I suppose, but a better chat companion. I'll be back at 2:00 PST
godster: I am Christina Valentine, MA Crit at Art Center.
nomad: Who are you ommm?
ommm: oh, i'm mike heim, your mc for today. 
"UCLA Media Arts": But Peter we can't wait that long ... our class is over!
gaga: tom mancuso, english faculty at art center
"UCLA Media Arts": at UCLA we are four grad students Vivian, Aelee, Sarah, William and prof. Rebecca
ommm: great, a four-headed avatar!
godster: Sorry to read that you may have to miss this discussion, UCLA. We do have more coming up though
ommm: i'm doing a tap dance while Peter gets ready
sally: ommm, perhaps you could say a bit about cyberforum for our ucla guests
ommm: okay. today is the opening of CyberForum
ommm: we are beginning an experimental series 
ommm: in online meetings and conferencing
ommm: in a 3D world
ommm: we are exploring ways to facilitate meetings
ommm: using avatar chat
ommm: we hope to devise new ways of working within
ommm: the ActiveWorlds interface
ommm: right now, as you can see, the interface is not smooth
ommm: for serious interactive meetings
ommm: we would like to study the interface and develop it
ommm: while doing things we like, such as talking about new media theories
sally: now sally is tobey
ommm: so we welcome you all and are pleased
ommm: that you could come and join
ommm: this experiment
ommm: we are beginning today with a discussion of some
ommm: essays put together by Peter Lunenfeld 
ommm: the collection of essays includes writers like Brenda Laurel, William J. Mitchell, George Landow, and Katherine Hayles
"UCLA Media Arts": is there any advantage to being in a 3D world? it seems to be more complicated than text chats or video conferencing
ommm: Every couple weeks a different speaker from this group
ommm: will address us here
ommm: and that question -- what can 3D contribute? --
ommm: will be a central question for us as we work with each
ommm: speaker throughout the term. 
ommm: we don't have the answers but we do think
ommm: that 3D is to the Web what color is to b/w film
ommm: something is added by simulated presence
ommm: we want to explore ways to develop and exploit this potential. 
ommm: CyberForum is a place to experiment with 3D and with serious talk. 
ommm: we hope our environment will change as we learn how to design it.
"UCLA Media Arts": perhaps as much as 3D should be addressed, the notion of 
clarifying "threads" in a chat room might be important. 
ommm: hmmm, do you mean threads as in Usenet newsgroups?
"UCLA Media Arts": yes. chat spaces can be so confusing, with the answer to one's question appearing 20 lines after one has asked it.
"skejs": 3D is a visual universe - the visual is the point of the universe - it's beyond talk
ommm: so you mean the text line could be structured?
nomad: hear hear ucla. its like trying to unravel a piece of fabric. 
gaga: color coded?
"skejs": no, I mean I wish the technology allowed us to act more. 
sally: or orchestrated, given a sound environment
ommm: what do you mean by "act" skejs?
"UCLA Media Arts": maybe chat areas also. The nice thing about a visual space is that it can simulate a party, with multiple conversations. 
"UCLA Media Arts": i mean sub-areas, not worlds
ommm: this text chat was designed by an engineer, not an artist
godster: something in Eduverse that is making attempts to address this is the text bubbles above our heads
ommm: yes, the bubble draws the gaze to the 3D figure
gaga: and sometimes you can make sommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmething unusual
ommm: hehehe
sally: I have found in plaza type areas that it is usually not too hard to follow several threads simulatneously..like many things it is a matter of practice
ommm: i do think this medium requires practice, it did for me as someone who's book-trained
godster: interesting to mention practice - does it not indicate that you are in development of some kind of socializaation?
"UCLA Media Arts": did Art Center students design this world we are in.
mjson: it'd be much harder with voice chat sally, more is not always better
ommm: yes, the team at Art Center developed accd world

sally: that's why I said "orchestrated" above, so that violins would be one group, piano another
nomad: the nice thing about voice chat is that it might engage listening behavior
gaga: and allow eyes more freedom
ommm: yes, listening is not something that comes easily in these environments, and until it does, speaking will not develop in it
sally: interesting
"UCLA Media Arts": the big difference between this and real space is that people take turns 
to talk and listen.
mjson: I'm thinking about doing some experiments on that
ommm: we can see physical cues in RL
ommm: but remember, it takes years of social learning before we get those skills
ommm: RL social interaction undergoes continual evolution
"UCLA Media Arts": we have to almost unlearn speaking-listening!
ommm: yes, and re-learn in adaptive mode
"skejs": Act - sorry I was absent - we should be able to act - interact - dance, move around, 
draw pictures - each showing the world to each other
godster: of course, we must remember that we are very adaptable as people too.
"skejs": by the way - what is RL?
"Paul": UCLA - Could you explain that concept more?
"UCLA Media Arts": what concept?
"Paul": that you have to unlearn speaking-listening
sally: in some sense, it harkens to an earlier, more polite, Jane Austenesque era
godster: really?
ommm: with CyberForum we are trying to drag an older format -- book chat
ommm: into the 3D environment and re-learn how to do it
ommm: the "author" is the authority of the older culture
ommm: here, no narrative can ever be completed and closed
gaga: peter will talk about the "unfinished" i expect
ommm: (to godster) how's peter doing?
"UCLA Media Arts": if we are socialized to wait our turn to speak, we have to kind of forget that in oder to survive here.
gaga: to survive? to be heard?
ommm: yes, we have to unlearn
ommm: there's a lot of multi-tasking in these environments
ommm: the Unfinished is Peter's theme
ommm: the single line does not hold as in a lecture room
"Paul": Yet, if I step forward, as I have done, and close the text chat so that I only "see" what you are saying
ommm: interesting idea, Paul. maybe next event we should try to all close the chat line?
gaga: that's one thing to experiment with
"UCLA Media Arts": to thrive. to not get impatient. to understand what others are saying through multiple streams.
sally: if we have to unlearn, is that something like counter-cultural? 
"Paul": I have much the same experience as I would at a social gathering
godster: Peter Lunenfeld is here and ready

ommm: we're very pleased today to have Peter Lunenfeld in avatar
PeterL: Hello all.
sally: hi
PeterL: Meat is back
PeterL: Ready to provoke
mjson: hi Peter
ommm: Please go to it Peter
PeterL: hi
acroon: hi Peter
PeterL: Still hard for me to type and move
ommm: we were just talking about your Unfinished media, and about the curve of skills in this kind of communication
PeterL: unfinish seems to define chat
PeterL: but we have to learn to move chat beyond the obvious
ommm: is conversation the same as chat?
sally: what about dialogue?
PeterL: chat seems less directed than conversation, more ephemeral
ommm: can more than two have a conversation?
PeterL: yes, and i'd love to hear from some of the others here
PeterL: one question is, who fills the silences?
sally: are you saying you want to field questions from the panel and guests?
PeterL: that's one way
PeterL: many have read the book, so the long form is working
PeterL: how do we use this short form?
godster: would you say some of the ways to think differently about chat is the meandering 
godster: you mention in your book?
gaga: you almost have to speak in slogans, don't you?
"fidel": How do you define silence?
gaga: or aphorisms
PeterL: a good conversation ebbs and flows
gaga: that gives the silences something to do
godster: couldn't we see the chat as a whole rather than individual?
PeterL: tv desensitizes us to the importance of silence (often listening)
sally: in your book, you indicate that you believe 3D will be a major area of future development, but that was written about four years ago? How do you feel about 3D now, especially standing here in avatar in accd world?
"fidel": well I would like to get tuned in to the lingo/mind of things
gaga: yes, we'd like an update of your thoughts
PeterL: sally -- still waiting to see if it gets beyond gee-whiz stage
"skejs": why don't we try to be silent, everybody, and try to move around together instead of talking. 
PeterL: gaga -- I think they're still more interesting to build than to visit
"skejs": Peter, why don't you walk, and we follow u. lets see if we can interact
PeterL: skejs -- that would certainly move us past language
godster: are we not in the midst of the progression from wow to how?
sally: which you would define as what kind of activity? What would be adequately serious usage to 
satisfy non-gee-whiz criteria?
Hypatia: that is a good question -- ditto
PeterL: i'd be interested in having skejs lead us in a joint action, to start
"fidel": downloads not possible at the moment, but could it become a real gadget in the future filling the gap between mind and body?
"UCLA Media Arts": I would want to see facial cues - they are so important to conversation
"skejs": lets go
godster: perhaps there are other cues to be gotten here?
gaga: facial cues seem irreplaceably important; but is there some other body-like cue possible?
"fidel": Running fast means-----I'm in a hurry?
godster: something to consider is the potential for movement, combined with text emphasis maybe?
"UCLA Media Arts": what is the body-clue for a nostril flare?
PeterL: conversation in a bar is different than conversation on a hike
PeterL: more physical on hike -- cued to environment
"Paul": action without context
PeterL: all actions have context -- question is of which kind?
sally: when you dance, you are acting in a correspondance to many cues, music, other people, sexiness in the room...but this is a primarily text driven environment as far as interaction goes. It is not as if I can hand you an item which you can examine, etc
PeterL: Fidel --3D development still too architectural -- needs more conceptual edge

"fidel": But the presumptions are not shared
sally: Think of opera
"Paul": without context or meaning to the receiver isn't it just noise?
gaga: maybe an impoverished realm of physical cues could make single physical cues more poignant
godster: at the moment, we still have the ability to beam via text actions to others around us. Remember the MUDs
sally: maybe the realm of cues is inadequately expressed, but not because they are not available, but because they are invisible to today's VW user...
Hypatia: to make movement an experiential thing, doesn't this space have to have a type 
of "physics" first -- so you "feel" the reaction to your movements in space?
PeterL: sally -- why are you up here?
gaga: hypatia, that seems true
ommm: Hypat: do you mean force feedback?
sally: Actually Peter, I just took over a set up computer and didn't bother to change my position, since I could see all users simultaneously
"fidel": Feedback 
PeterL: the temporal disjunction of this conversation is fascinating
sally: very unfinished
ommm: the most fun thing for me is to shift my POV around slightly
ommm: and catch the different aesthetic moments, some quite wonderful
gaga: and to shift from far to near
Hypatia: yes a play of forces -- for instance in here when you go up to an avatar 
you walk right through him/her -- it actually feels very rude but there are no avatar body boundaries
PeterL: how visual (rather than textual) is this for you?
nomad: hypatia, hear hear
godster: further yet Hypatia, consider the online VR games where folks can hit others
"fidel": Boundaries seems translucent are we angels?
"skejs": lets play: the aim is to get as high as possible in the room
mjson: does the "unfinished" quality of this conversation make it less committing in some sense, Peter?
"skejs": but when u reach the roof u are not allowed
"skejs": to see anybody's name
Hypatia: yes perhaps no boundaries is a good thing -- not really sure -- sort of like the chairs that you say one cannot actually "sit on"
zg: hiya - yes i am listening attentively - trying to keep quiet :)
PeterL: absolutely -- but idea that the record (chat log) is kept remains somehow terrifying
gaga: you don't have to own up to one idea
ommm: the textual is the real-time presence, which makes the visual fascinating
zg: its an interesting debate
mjson: yes
"skejs": if u do see, u have to go all the way to the floor and start over
"skejs": does anybody want to play
nomad: i'm with ommm on texture
PeterL: i do, but it must be fun to be play
"skejs": so make it fun!!
zg: the most important thing about these environments (imho) is to be able to play
godster: isn't that what gamers do zg? play?
zg: yes, but most games are destructive
godster: true
zg: these environmenst are creative by their very nature. you are limited only by your imagination
"skejs": i guess im a lonely winner doesnt anybody try to hit me
Hypatia: well spinning and looking down at all of you certainly gives one 
the sense of vertigo -- a ride of sorts -- but very isolated from social experience
PeterL: game designers work furiously to make fun
gaga: prescribed fun
PeterL: how can discourse (complex by nature) be enlivened?
godster: and isn't it thru the fun that socialization takes place?
mjson: i don't agree zg, the core of gaming is social interaction: constructing friendship
godster: I agree Mjson. In here, we talk about the doing rather than doing it
nomad: very homo ludens, godster
"skejs": hypatia, are u playing?
zg: its better to do than to talk
PeterL: godster -- you identify one of the worst aspects of criticism
sally: Isn't that sort of an odd request though in this context? If I go to a conference on the arts, I don't expect to do any actual artmaking, though that might be fun...
ommm: talking and doing coalesce here when a team builds something
Hypatia: well I hope so
zg: very true ommmm
ommm: in a sense we are building something right now. we just don't know its shape yet....;-)
Hypatia: I agree ommm
mjson: and it's forever unfinished
PeterL: danger in valorizing collaboration for its own sake, though
godster: hmmm
zg: in a sense you could view this as one huge ongoing installation piece
Hypatia: is what we are building a conceptual sculpture of our avatars? 
godster: you raise a good point zg
PeterL: back to sally on conferences...
PeterL: lack of involvement is why they tend to suck
sally: how about that?
zg: if this were a real life space - we would not be as open as we are in here
godster: too true zg!
"skejs": to socialize we have to act and interact - but to do that we need rules, structures and/or norms
sally: But still, interaction as participatory discussion is what we are doing right now
Hypatia: Very similar to dynamics of 2d chat environs -- the openness in cyberspace -- what makes 3d different?
gaga: that's the question
ommm: social rules in RL conferences are highly evolved over centuries
ommm: and it takes years to learn the rules
PeterL: godster -- i want to stalk you, so as to assimilate your movement skills
"UCLA Media Arts": I am interested in hearing voices that change volume as one changes positions.
zg: this could equally as well be more than a discussion
"fidel": Right about the openess, zg
godster: just havin fun
"skejs": right, ommm. I'm just impatient
Hypatia: proscenium stage style one-to-many (RL conferences)
Hypatia: I spend a lot of time in these worlds and tend to get impatient when I am not doing something "constructive"
ommm: how do we introduce "some authority" (linearity) into this medium
ommm: without bringing back the proscenium?
Hypatia: yes leave that rectilinear artifact out
zg: i like the "cybernaut" av btw
"skejs": tell me about constructiveness hypatia
"UCLA Media Arts": glad you noticed my av.
zg: does your authority not come with the bold text?
PeterL: zg -- make typography vital
zg: well - it strikes me that the darker your text the more 'important' one is perceived to be
"fidel": Impatience in here must surely be different from the real world?
"skejs": tell me about constructiveness hypatia
Hypatia: well I like to build in here or build usefulness into it
Hypatia: because just shooting the breeze -- chat groups or whatever
Hypatia: is very -- well nothing really can be shown for it
Hypatia: when all is said and done
godster: can usefullness preceed the knowledge of interaction?
zg: and the "tourist" are such a pale grey
godster: ahhh marketing no?
nomad: hypatia--what about the pleasure the medium affords?
PeterL: back to question about importance of 3D space

sally: What if we had other things to look at, such as film clips, web cam, drawings, animation, slide shows, while we were interacting?
Hypatia: well the pleasure is the people (for me)
"fidel": I've a concept called Situflex, and may be me and my colleges could construct a virtual situflex?
PeterL: for me, it's about escaping sameness of what I call permanent present
PeterL: combination of Blade runner look and Mac/Wintel interfaces
"skejs": sounds interesting - what is situflex?
"fidel": Its an idea about sharing the power of the internet
zg: people are the killer ap in here. without people it is mothing
ommm: zg is right
Hypatia: well said, zg
zg: just a sculpture park
godster: hear hear
mjson: yes
godster: interesting you say that zg. it was a scuplture park before the bodies occupied the avs
Hypatia: but in vr, you can build your own personality into its structure if you 
are a builder/conceiver/designer -- it is a type of language
zg: its the tree falling in the forest thing really
godster: like the way we wear our clothes and hair hypatia in RL?
Hypatia: no actually
zg: does the world exist before it is populated
Hypatia: much more creative than that -- like choreographing a dance
"fidel": Not the human world
sally: zg where are you?
zg: i am in the uk
Hypatia: or better yet, zg -- does this world exist before someone builds it? 
There is no confusion about chicken and egg in here -- it is a human product
godster: funny how you understood the meaning of sally's question
zg: its a common question
nomad: excellent, that coreography is part of the enjoyment, h!
sally: that is exactly what I meant, with the time zone reference
godster: I always think the where to be location in VR
zg: interesting.... there are simultaneous wheres though
vetunimi1: hello
Hypatia: yes for those of us who love to dance, our avatar bodies are quite confined
nomad: peter, what is the relationship between 3d and permanent present?
Brainstorm: hey everybody, sorry but I am blind and didn´t find my way, 
my browser broke somehow, while I cleaned the cache 
Hypatia: is there a handicapped access area in here ommm?
"fidel": where is not a place, it's a state
sally: lol
godster: hee heee
PeterL: nomad -- permanent present (pp) is where we're stuck 
PeterL: movies, products, everything stopped evolving visually in mid to late 80s
godster: a state of what fidel
gaga: keep going peter
nomad: peter, hope is manifest in virtual worlds?
sally: you are going to explain what you mean right Peter?
gaga: let's get back to peter's ideas
PeterL: Permanent Present: The sense that for all the technological innovations of the past two decades, our visual culture remains trapped in a relentless present, idly circling itself as if waiting for 
"Paul": Enjoyed it. Gotta get back to makin' a living. See you the 9th.
sally: bye
nomad: but, what about active worlds, peter? specific critique?
gaga: ok paul see you
godster: ciao
PeterL: nomad -- reason to interact if not already addicted still to be worked out
"fidel": Nice going godster
ommm: (to gaga) do that dance again please gaga
godster: notice how folks move away when i do that fidel?
Hypatia: hmmm please say more along those lines, Peter
sally: did the speaker just call us addicts?
zg: aw is addictive
gaga: peter, talk about your interest in screengrab aesthetic
PeterL: Screengrabs are quick fix -- not deep understanding
gaga: are these spots of time that Wordsworth might hate?
sally: you mean it's a superficial thing?
nomad: well adapted to documenting unfinish, peter?
PeterL: always a danger of overindulging in nano-thoughts
godster: true ptr
PeterL: nomad -- very true -- theory in real time is exhausting
"UCLA Media Arts": I've been observing 3D chat for a few years now and nothing has improved. text chat rooms break too many social rules of conversation and are frustrating. I haven't seen any examples of 3D enhancing this.
sally: so the navel of the monitor causes you boredom...
vetunimi1: here we could use the voice for example UCLA..
vetunimi1: the hear-me voice just works out fine...
ommm: would direct voice not overwhelm this fantasy world?
gaga: i find 3d chat less claustrophobic myself because there is visual separation
PeterL: to be honest -- only thing that struck me as worth doing in 3D was moving with skedj
"skejs": yes!
sally: lol
ommm: should we become peripatetic and follow skejs?
Hypatia: there is something to be said for that
Hypatia: there is something romantic about being in these worlds without 
voice -- now that I am using voice a lot for the first time in tandem
Hypatia: Peter -- what about the lack of RL geographic boundaries?
zg: this is a truly stateless state
"skejs": U can't catch me, he, he
PeterL: professional pedants (uh.. me, maybe) like freedom of _not_ leading
ommm: for those who see pyramids instead of avatars: exit, delete your cache, 
and return (thanks, mjson)
Hypatia: for me this place -- real-time multi-user 3d "place" is the key to really collaborate, meet and experience things with people I have never and will never meet because we live so far away from one another. that is way beyond gee whiz for me
sally: I think Hypatia is very right on here
mjson: very true Hyp
godster: tag skejs! I ran thru you!!
"Tinex": Hej Skejs are you here?
ommm: should we become peripatetic and follow skejs?
Hypatia: there is something to be said for that
PeterL: Hypat: what do you _do_ with them beyond _being_ with them?
Hypatia: well maybe my experience is not the norm but I have been working with zg for almost two years now
nomad: indeed, hypat
zg: its possible to get to know people very well over a period of time as they have a persistent identity
Hypatia: and I feel like we are friends
Hypatia: we have accomplished a lot together
"skejs": hej tinex - did u finish?
"fidel": fidel says hey to tinex
sally: you can see for yourself that the way we formulate our thoughts are quite different
"Tinex": salud fidel, siempre situflex
"skejs": tinex, try to make these people play
"fidel": Siempre
"skejs": they seem to be more into talking
"Tinex": I seem to be a little stuck
"skejs": tinex follow me!
Hypatia: and I genuinely feel "affection" for my compatriot and her family although we know each other only as avatars
zg: strange but true
sally: I wouldn't have guessed that zg was a lady BTW
Hypatia: Is there not something pragmatically important about that for large groups of students?
zg: zg is not necessarily a lady :0)
sally: lol
Hypatia: hahahah
mjson: that surprised me too (the other week)
zg: thats another thing
zg: zg is a hybrid
mjson: oh
sally: excuse me?
godster: ??
zg: ok - the avatar previously known as "zg" can contain either one 
of two people or two people simultaneously
Hypatia: zg is aurac -- I probably don't know how often I have been talking 
and working with penny or craig or craig and penny at once

PeterL: one question to all: did reading book have any impact on your own work/thinking
sally: isn't this like the original Turing test? Can you tell just from text whether the other person is a man or a woman?
mjson: yes peter
PeterL: mjson how?
Brainstorm: Yes, it keeps my fantasy alive, for working on my ideas in real life
godster: yes ptr, esp the meandering aspects
sally: it is doing its work, slowly, inexorably
gaga: the gender talk is distracting
"Tinex": hej fidel
"skejs": ready to fly?
"Tinex": si
"fidel": Puha hvor skal man skrive hurtigt for at få sagt noget
godster: nay prota svenska fidel
"skejs": ja, la os se hva de siger hvis vi taler nordisk
"Tinex": Det er da sikkert ligegyldigt
godster: nay prata skejs
"fidel": allmost godster
godster: prota ensligh please?
"skejs": vi har da fåët et til at blive nysgerrig -eller irriteret
"fidel": Kierkegaard, you know
"Tinex": Ja, måskje er vi også lidt for anarkoagtige til dette forum
zg: zg has 'its' own personailty
zg: people don't appear to know which Identity they are talking to
mjson: me and acroon is working on a paper on how these worlds affect "being with technology"
mjson: the concept of unfinished is of importance I think
PeterL: a lot of artists have talked to me about unfinish
mjson: aha
acroon: what do they say Peter?
sally: as far as the zg persona goes, there are certainly artists who create their own personae for various purposes...
gaga: this feels as if it is going on too long, the threads are fraying
PeterL: gaga -- tend to agree, losing focus
godster: there are two conversations here or?
nomad: i find the concept of the unfinished helps me understand what we have made, but does not guide our making
Hypatia: I think it is not important who you are but what you say and what you do -- inworld anyway
godster: interestig nomad
PeterL: acroon -- find it sympathetic to their practice, relieved to not be expected to fully finish every piece
acroon: aha
godster: but what is finished? after all, when an art piece is made it is reread over and over again throu time
gaga: why should artists feel relieved?
mjson: but isn't there a longing for closure still?
zg: nothing in AW is ever finished
nomad: yes mj
zg: just like real life really
PeterL: perhaps we need to learn (un)natural limits to chat
nomad: "unfinished" may explain our situation, not our making
sally: I didn't take the unfinished to mean you could do sloppy work...
PeterL: sally-- Never!!
acroon: Nomad - I think I see your point, not a good concept for design...
nomad: are we longing for a "finish" to the chat?
sally: yes say goodnight Gracie
PeterL: Dear All -- thanks for fascinating time
gaga: goodnight, all
zg: surely the chat finishes when the last two people wish to stop talking?
mjson: thanks Peter
ommm: thank you, Peter, for joining us
nomad: thanks peter!!!!
gaga: take a bow peter
godster: tak ptr
acroon: thanks!
sally: tahnx pl
"skejs": thanks peterl
"fidel": thanks Peter
ommm: and thanks to all who participated by coming to the first meeting of CyberForum@ArtCenter
PeterL: great stuff can't wait to discuss
"skejs": see u next wed.
"Tinex": thanks peter
"fidel": Next time more sense than practice
zg: thanks it was an interesting chat
ommm: we will meet again Feb. 9th and begin with a
ommm: summary of what we discussed today
ommm: please email your reflections to cyberforum@artcenter.edu
zg: will you be posting a log
Brainstorm: can you contact me, for more on your work?
ommm: to get on the mailing list, please click on the right panel of your browser
ommm: on the "Forum fans" link and send us your email address
ommm: we will also post pics and chat log of this Forum. we hope to learn from each occasion how
ommm: to make this a deeper cyberspace
ommm: see you on Feb. 9th,. 2000, 1:30 pm PST!
Hypatia: thanks ommmm
vetunimi1: thanks ommm
godster: good bye all!
Hypatia: Thanks Peter
ommm: bye bye
mjson: bye ommm