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Sheridan's Estimation World (with 3D Chart) created by Matthew Sloly April 18 (Wed): Thomas B. Sheridan, MIT engineer and editor of the VR journal Presence, explains his theory of reality estimation 04/18/01 1:14 PM
Welcome to the Public chat Zeke has joined the group Zeke : mike are you at art center? or MIT? Mike Heim : hi Zeke. i'm in Santa Barbara on the UC campus Zeke : I am in Ithaca NY Zeke : So what are we going to talk about today Zeke : I heard about this from Active worlds Mike : cool Zeke. in Eduverse? Zeke : yes Zeke : My advisor will be joining us shortly Zeke : we're very interested in three dimensional internet marcia has joined the group waves hello to everyone Mike Heim : hello marcia marcia : hi Mike, got here on time this time! marcia : no sound in this world? Mike Heim : marica, we have not figured how to activate voices here. sorry! Bill Warner has joined the group marcia : get it going guru...you're the guy Bill Warner : Hello, I'm Bill Warner in English at UCSB Avatar PRESENCE has joined the group Franc has joined the group Mike Heim : hey Bill Mike Heim : hello Franc
Mike Heim : if you tap "a" key, you will see your avatar Mike Heim : if you want to change your avatar, go to Options (on the right) and then Av Library Franc : oh my god, hi Zeke : ok Zeke : here's the deal I am switchin' computers. See you in a few Zeke has left the group Mike Heim : to move around, try the PgUp / Down Mike Heim : each tap reveals a viewpoint Mike Heim : like yr hairdo Bill ;-) Mike Heim : the ESC will return you to the beginning Mike Heim : where you from, marcia Franc : hi bill marcia : Nuovo York Cita marcia : but temporarily stranded at Cornell Avatar ID has joined the group Zeke has joined the group Zeke : am back marcia : see http://www.mediartspace.cornell.edu/marcia.htm Zeke : shameless plug marcia : art scheister behavior Zeke : This is the slowest computer ever Zeke : so bill where are you from? Mike Heim : bill is in santa barbara, US Zeke : don't jump, you have so much to live for marcia : we heard about you through Corbit at Theory Cornell Mike Heim : oh, yes, margaret! we've worked with her in Activeworlds / Eduverse Zeke : yeah we have as well Zeke : next time you are on, check out sciscape Zeke : it's the artist's world Mike Heim : will do, is it in Eduverse or AW? Zeke : Eduverse Zeke : Do you know how to texture map? Mike Heim : are artists exhibiting in sciscape? Zeke : yeah aeob has joined the group Zeke : and can you tell how to do movies or rotating jpgs Mike Heim : Zeke: are you asking me? Zeke : yes Mike Heim : well, we do some of these things at Art Center Mike Heim : but they are best learned hands-on Zeke : yeah, I know I checked out your world. I'm impressed Mike Heim : which world, Zeke? Zeke : the one with the flames etc. Mike Heim : oh, yes, that's ACCD world in Eduverse Zeke : and the mapped globes Zeke : we did it in 2 classes Mike Heim : that took us 2 yrs to do!! Franc : no lie boys they did it Zeke : but mapped flash onto surfaces Zeke : or at least linked it Zeke : bottom line is we want to map textures onto models Zeke : that we rendered and converted into .rwx from 3ds files Mike Heim : where are you from, Franc? Franc : san diego, mike Mike Heim : Zeke: do you use the converter program or export plugin? Zeke : I use a converter prog. Mike Heim : where about in san diego? Franc : national city Mike Heim : after the conversion you need to use the texmap95 program Mike Heim : so far our East Coast speaker, Tom Sheridan, has not shown. He was planning to arrive via modem Franc : mike, do you know Kim Abeles? Mike Heim : no, Franc, don't know Kim marcia : Do you know Ron Jones Mike Heim : hello aeob, where you coming from? aeob : Hello - I'm coming from Canada - NW Ontario Zeke : right on. international Mike Heim : welcome Canada! Franc has joined the group aeob : thank you - my first experience with blaxxun Franc has left the group Zeke : I had my first last night at 2 am Zeke : chatting with high schoolers in Cali aeob : how did it go? Zeke : The junior said he'd been doing it for 5 years. aeob : amazing - it's like 2nd nature Mike Heim : high schoolers view this as 2nd nature? aeob : I have nieces and nephew high school age, and for them, this is utterly natural Zeke : he said that he and his friends enjoyed it Michele has joined the group Mike Heim : hello michele, i think i know which michele you are!! Michele : hi mike:) Mike Heim : do you know how to navigate here? Michele : yes, but I'm on a slow connection estroide has joined the group Mike Heim : hello estroide!! Mike Heim : you are in sweden, no? estroide : hi. yes. Zeke : So what exactly are we doing? Mike Heim : in a few minutes, we will talk about PRESENCE in VR Zeke : basically i am walking into a wall and crashing a ton Mike Heim : Zeke, just get into a comfortable spot near the chart Mike Heim : have you found the chart? Zeke : ok Michele : chart? Franc : righty-oh Mike Heim : just use the PgUp / Dn keys 4 or 5 times Mike Heim : you'll find the chart Zeke : Ok, I am at the chart
Franc : my chart's text is buggd out. Mike Heim : buggd out? Zeke : put on your glasses Mike Heim : haha Franc : jibberish Franc : not english Mike Heim : why don't you guys in blue get a new avatar? Franc : nonsense Mike Heim : hit the "a" key to see view your current av Mike Heim : go to Options (right frame) / Avatar Library to suit up with something more colorful Michele has left aeob has left Mike Heim : when you choose a new av, you exit for a moment Mike Heim : then you will automatically return Michele has joined the group Slowmend has joined the group Mike Heim : hello Slowmend Mike Heim : where are you coming from? Franc has left the group Franc has joined the group Mike Heim : we're getting a much more colorful group... Bill Warner : What is the topic for the day? estroide has left the group Mike Heim : the topic is PRESENCE in VR estroide has joined the group Mike Heim : maybe we should just go ahead and start Zeke : ok Bill Warner : Ok Franc : sure Mike Heim : i've been waiting for Tom Sheridan, who wrote an article about the significance of PRESENCE in VR aeob has joined the group Mike Heim : he wrote it for the journal he edits Mike Heim : and the journal is called "Presence" ;-) Mike Heim : most appropriate, no? Mike Heim : Tom is an engineer who works with teleoperators Mike Heim : do you know what teleoperators do? Michele : I don't... Mike Heim : have you ever seen documentaries about exploring underseas? Mike Heim : using intelligent probes into outer space? Mike Heim : these tools are teleoperators Mike Heim : tools that extend the vision and touch of humans Mike Heim : often using cameras, computers, various electronics Mike Heim : follow me? Michele : yes marcia : yes,,,,,,
Mike Heim : so Tom Sheridan as an engineer thinks about the problem spans has joined the group Mike Heim : of how to measure that ability to "touch someone" or something from afar Mike Heim : hi spans spans : hi Mike Heim : so this is what engineers call "telepresence"\ marcia : Are there access hubs that we can get a sense of what this is like? Mike Heim : do you know what that word means originally? Mike Heim : marcia: do you mean teleoperators? Zeke : http://europa.spaceports.com/~comet/ Mike Heim : thanks Zeke marcia : something from talking heads time...tv people Mike Heim : well think about it, marcia, from the other side... marcia : to be the teleoperator? Mike Heim : from the side of the user who "reaches out" Mike Heim : yes, exactly, marcia Mike Heim : the question then is, from the operator side, How much Mike Heim : "presence" do I have in this other space? Franc has joined the group Mike Heim : just as here in this virtual world, how "much" are we "here" Mike Heim : or are we sitting in front of a monitor of plastic and glass marcia : do you need a lot of stuff or is vrml with sound essentially the concept so far Mike Heim : well, Tom Sheridan works with more sophisticated tools than VRML and monitors Mike Heim : so his problem of Presence comes from more powerful Mike Heim : teleoperators than the system we are now using Mike Heim : but the problem that arose among Tom S. and his fellow Mike Heim : engineers at MIT Bill Warner : In Sheridan's essay, I wish that he had explicated the example of VR used to navigate in Space (e.g. Mars rover) from earth; then the concept of estimation as a way to bridge gaps in spatial knowledge would make more sense. Mike Heim : yes, Bill, Tom's essay was really not for general readers but for Mike Heim : fellow engineers who were arguing about their teleoperations Mike Heim : my hope was to bring his / their discussion into our avatar worlds and the public at large Mike Heim : are you folks following so far? Michele : yes spans : sorry-slept in- still too sleepy aeob : yes Mike Heim : spans: you still sleeping? Mike Heim : dreaming? Slowmend : yes spans : not sure Mike Heim : well, the discussion among engineers was about how to measure telepresence Mike Heim : everything in engineering must be, according to Cartesian principles, measured exactly Mike Heim : so in order to compare different experiences of presence (telepresence) Zeke : Sorry yall, I gots to go Zeke has left the group Mike Heim : the engineers were looking for a standard or rule for determining amounts of prsence Bill Warner : I like the idea that action within an environment is as crucial as sensory perception to experiencing / determining what is "really" out there. Michele : can that be measured? Mike Heim : well, Bill, that's exactly where the argument split down the middle Mike Heim : some engineers insist that there's something "out there" to measure Mike Heim : and some say there is never anything fully "out there" and we are always re-creating presence in various ways Mike Heim : the arguments in the journal PRESENCE split according to Mike Heim : two different philosophies: Descartes (rationalism) and Heidegger / Gibson (ecology of awareness) Mike Heim : the followers of rationalism keep looking for ways to measure the gap between our senses and the things we experience while Mike Heim : the followers of ecological awareness argue that our sense and the environment are Mike Heim : parts of a harmonious system (eco-system) we perceive and are present to where we are acting and doing Mike Heim : our actions open up a field of perceptions in this view rather than our perceptions making "things" available Mike Heim : the two groups argued it out over 10 years in PRESENCE journal and Tom Sheridan's essay tries to accept both views Mike Heim : reconcile them Mike Heim : let's go find a good view of the chart that Tom created to clarify his theory... Mike Heim : i'm now up here looking at the chart Mike Heim : you can either walk up the platform ramp Mike Heim : or you can use PgUp a few times to get in this view Mike Heim : then i can try to explain this chart... Mike Heim : please let me know when you get a decent view of the chart estroide : decent view!
spans : right in it Bill Warner : ok Michele : ok aeob : go on ahead, I'll catch up - I'm moving REALLY slow! bird has joined the group Mike Heim : aeob: try right clicking on my name (right window) and "Beam to" which will Join you Nomad has joined the group Mike Heim : okay, the chart Mike Heim : hi nomad aeob : Ha - there you are! Thank you Mike Heim : so the chart tries to reconcile the two views by suggesting an input / output process for perception Mike Heim : obviously Tom Sheridan should be here to explain this cause i'm not the engineer he is Mike Heim : you can see the explanation has the mold of an engineering mentality (flowchart) Nomad : Is tom here? Mike Heim : the key, i think, to this chart -- if i may be so bold as to speak for tom - Mike Heim : is the box called "estimated model of reality" Mike Heim : can you see that box? Bill Warner : Yes Slowmend : yes Mike Heim: no tom's not shown up yet spans : aha estroide : yep Mike Heim : tom's innovative approach is to accept both views: Mike Heim : namely, that we build a model of reality in our heads from an "outside" world and that we are perceiving only insofar as we are doing and action Mike Heim : what we see is limited by our range of activities Mike Heim : we do not perceive purely passively, like a mirror reflecting the "real world" Mike Heim : rather we continually open up new "affordances" (J.J. Gibson) that Mike Heim : allow us to take in more information about reality Mike Heim : but that "reality" is not simply "out there" and something we learn about as if from a distant country Mike Heim : this "flow" chart is indeed about a process of flow that accumulates information Mike Heim : the "model" is continually re-constituted by us as we go about establishing our presence in the world Mike Heim : so, as with the rationalists, we are learning about something other than ourselves Nomad : I got Tom on the phone . . . he will be here soon! Bill Warner : Can you explain what is happing at the top of the chart where the "integral" sign is? Mike Heim : but, as with the eco-perceptionists, Tom Bill Warner : Why is the value for the sensory data changing? Mike Heim : allows (Bill) for the continual transformation of the data that we receive Mike Heim : the model we build in us affects the processing of the data we "passively" receive Mike Heim : so there is no complete passivity and no complete activity Mike Heim : tom is going to arrive soon, i hope, to explain that sigma Bill asks about Mike Heim : you will notice lots of "filters" in Tom's chart Bill Warner : So the "sensory filter model" on the left is the effect of the "action" producing a feedback that will act on sensory input? Mike Heim : yes, i think we have something very much based on Wiener's cybernetic thinking Mike Heim : which is applicable to guided missiles and thermostats as well as humans (maybe) Visitor has joined the group Mike Heim : welcome Visitor!! Nomad : Tom? Mike Heim : we need you to visit us and explain the sigma on your chart Visitor : Hello folks. This is Sheridan, late. Mike Heim : welcome Tom Sheridan!!! aeob : hello! Nomad : Hi Tom! Michele : hi Mike Heim : we've been enjoying and contemplating your diagram Visitor : Ok, where do we start Bill Warner : Hello and welcome. We were trying to discuss your essay in your absence. Nice to have your "presence". Mike Heim : can you tell us what prompted that paper of yours? Mike Heim : yes, we haven't yet got to avatar "presence" Visitor : My presence wasn't present Mike Heim : but PRESENCE was! Mike Heim : Tom: you may want to use PgUp / Down to get to the chart here Bill Warner : I have just read your essay, but I'm not sure who has... Visitor : I don't see a chart. Mike Heim : tap the PgUp key a few times Nomad : Join us on the platform. spans : right click and select it in viewpoints estroide : does anyone have the url of the essay? Nomad : Press Page Up or Page Down Visitor : pg up and down do nothing, but I see somebody there aeob : Right click, choose Viewpoints, and at the bottom you'll see the chart
Mike Heim : Tom: can you tell us about the process the chart describes Visitor : But I know the diagram, so someone ask a question Nomad has left the group spans : hmm yes I like the AW idea of having text labels for avatar names Visitor : Ok Nomad has joined the group Visitor : Within the pages of PRESENCE a discussion about the nature and measurement of "presence " has been going on. spans : is anyone using the text-voice converter? Bill Warner : I liked the way your essay seeks to mediate between the "radicals" who want to separate virtuality from reality and those who make reality simply a version of virtuality. Bill Warner : Can you explain what is happing in the "integral" circle at the top of the diagram?
Visitor has left the group spans : Oh no so soon Mike Heim : well, he's coming on a modem from home spans : I knew I should have had a shower before I came Mike Heim : haha estroide : is Tom's article accessible on the web? Mike Heim : No i don't think so, estroide estroide : The flow chart must somehow be the perceptual system of a single individual - the perciever. In the chart s/he is represented as located outside reality. But isn't reality also made up of perceptual systems? Mike Heim : excellent point, estroide
Mike Heim : the cartesian model of perception is that of an individual self who hordes what is perceived, building up an interior model Mike Heim : this model does not take account of the avatar which by its nature goes out generously to establish contact Mike Heim : connection / perception is a going-out that makes presence as well as a taking-in Nomad : estroide . . . isn’t the "intelligent estimater" a generic entity, there could be more than one. Bill Warner : I can think of analogues from conversation: eye contact, smiles, nodding the head Mike Heim : yes, estroide, and how do those perceptual systems interconnect? Mike Heim : BTW: you can right-click on your chat window to "undock" it which allows you to see more.... Mike Heim : can we assume a community of "intelligent estimators"? Mike Heim : if so, how do they share their "models"? Bill Warner : Culture is one of the main ways we get a con-sensus about models and estimation Nomad : The diagram must assume a basic dif between I/not-I, but it has to be more complex . . . at least, I assume so. ;-) spans : cultural conceit
estroide : culture is also ways to define the boundaries of perceptual systems - when we talk about them interconnecting, we have a priori defined them as separated entities. Bill Warner : good point! Nomad : In this world, the model is in an axis orient group, so we all can read it, but we do not share it. Bill Warner : We can't imagine this model coming from outside a cultural mindset estroide : Nomad, why not sharing? Slowmend has left the group Michele : why can't we imagine this model coming from outside a cultural mindset? Nomad : So culture is one field, but there are differences . . . how? bird has left the group aeob has left the group Nomad : Because we never see it from different positions, only one. Nomad : To have it equally, we can not share it differently. Bill Warner : This aspires to be a general model of subject/ environment interaction, but Nomad and Estroide pointed out the way it presupposes a rather drastic subject/ environment split, although to "heal" it..? Mike Heim : yes, that is the problem indeed Mike Heim : i think Tom admits this, that engineering is based on a Cartesian assumption of the self opposed to an outside nature Mike Heim : and so the chart has the Cartesian model underlying it in the split Nomad : Birth is such a split, yet without it, there would be 1 lonely 1ness. bird has joined the group Bill Warner : Let's do this again! I've got a non-virtual meeting to attend! Bill Warner has left the group spans : to fix the diagram don't we just move everything beyond the screen to inside the reality Mike Heim : okay, thanks, let's wrap up and say thanks to Nomad for building this chart world estroide : thanks, nomad - and everyone else Mike Heim : bye bye all spans : indeed, thank you all estroide : ciao estroide has left the group Mike Heim : see you Saturday at the Boston CyberArts Festival online Nomad : Bye! Michele : thanks bird has left the group Mike Heim : we begin at same time Saturday in Eduverse Mike Heim : in V-Art world
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