******************************************************* * The EduVerse chat session: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:30 PM PDT ******************************************************* ommm: welcome to the opening of the Summer series of CyberForum@ArtCenter ommm: we begin our forum with the main topic of our summer season: "The Avatar and the Global Brain" ommm: we are asking about the relation of cognitive systems (global brain) ommm: and these very avatars we now inhabit as telepresent entities ommm: our first speaker to launch us on this inquiry ommm: is someone I think of as "Mr. Avatar" -- Bruce Damer (digigardener) ommm: Bruce is known to anyone interested deeply in avatars Digigardener: folks if you dont mind watching me eat lunch, there is a webcam at: Digigardener: http://www.digitalspace.com/webcams/My_WebCam/love.htm Digigardener: i am in the Blue Room here at the digigarden, a small farm in Santa Cruz California Digigardener: it is 110 F now temperature, here at the Farm "Skipper": Clap clap clap spans1: hoot "akejay": Whoooo! real: Hello nomad: Bruce, nomad: Do you see humanity as having a role in the global brain . . . should such a sentient being ever evolve? What would that be? "billyat": who you pointing at bruce? "akejay": Clap. spans1: hoot hoot ommm: he has organized major avatar congresses for half a decade now ommm: and he is the author of the book titled "Avatars" ommm: he is also a leader in the study of biota and artificial life (any bots present today) ommm: we want to warmly welcome our first speaker Bruce (digigardener) Damer!!! Digigardener: (blushing) "akejay": Yay! Biota! nemo: hehe... "mrmime1809": Hi nomad: Cool! peanut: flap flap "LouisInAZ": clap clap nemo: cool "Derek": clap topcat: ciao bella!!! Digigardener: thanks Mike, and the whole crew in Pasadena and everywhere "akejay": stomp stomp! blip: Clap clap spans1: twit twooo "billyat": here here supernova: yeah! Hypatia: clap and cheer nemo: flap flap Digigardener: if an avatar claps in cyberspace is anyone there to hear it? "billyat": LMFAO nemo: if you put sound for it ommm: our first topos today is the social bandwidth of avatar worlds "akejay": I heard it! supernova: telepresently Digigardener: big crowd, thanks friends of the Contact Consortium for coming out ommm: let's begin at the CyberPlatform nemo: i'll join ya ommm "akejay": Where's that? ommm: see the green sunset ball i'm standing next to? Digigardener: ok folks pay attention, we will be navigating around "akejay": Yeah. ommm: this is the jump button (click) for the platform sally: hey everybody! "Claudia": hello all ommm: just click on it and you will go to the CyberForum Platform for part one of our presentation today "mrmime1809": May i join? Digigardener: *this big green ball will teleport you ommm: yes, just click on the Cyber Platform ball "Claudia": where is it? ommm: i'm flying right into it now, yes please click on it now sally: its the green ball
"akejay": oooooh. Digigardener: quite a space huh folks? "akejay": uh, where are we? Digigardener: so folks, avatars and social bandwidth sally: wheee guddy: quite a lolly, true nemo: yup Digigardener: how do you compare being "in-world" with the webcam on me here? topcat: I much prefer you in world than on the cam guddy: digi, explain that webcam please spans1: Your are a mind in VR Digigardener: by the way, if you want to extend the social bandwidth beyond the webcam and world, you can join me in voice at:http://www.ccon.org/conf99/hearme.html for this grand experiment supernova: i prefer the world spans1: A personage on web cam nemo: the web cam is more of an eye candy ommm: Bruce: do you think we need other instruments than avatars for good communication? Digigardener: yes indeed, well we need to be able to use body language Digigardener: as primates we are missing a great deal of social cues in avatar ommm: are avatars too limited for our bodies, will they get better? supernova: i agree. "akejay": imagine the interface for that! Digigardener: in the Barn here we will be building a studio to do motion capture into live net based worlds, gesture to avatar Digigardener: in onlive traveler they take voice and make phoneme-driven gestures peanut: but are there anyone else besides us primates to be in avatar? nemo: that's awesome "akejay": A bodysuit? Immersed in a tank of gray goo like Luke Skywalker on Hoth? peanut: great image akejay ommm: in online traveler you are just a head, right? blip: what about involuntary body language "Claudia": i think that the interaction is very limited yet... "akejay": I didn't want to mention Matrix yet. Digigardener: yes focusing on the face ommm: people never accepted the videophone, why? sally: maybe we can start with the gestures of the face, not even on body language. clack: an avatar that is only a face? Digigardener: well I think that the videophone violated privacy norms supernova: faces are fascinating "akejay": Videophone: architecture not open enough. Are we open enough? nemo: videophones are mostly in Asia aren't they? "harv": They had to spend too much time 'fixing themselves' beforehand.... Digigardener: you were being presented at random to anyone in your nightgown Digigardener: right harv "akejay": What about call waiting? Caller ID? guddy: I am a birdy right now, So what's about my body language? flap flap "Derek": Videophones give too much information, at too low a quality spans1: The significance of the avatar is to give a sense of position or self in a virtual world supernova: lack of privacy Digigardener: avatars preserve the privacy benefits of the telephone while providing more dimensions to interaction clack: and presence Digigardener: an interstitial space in cyberspace that can have properties not possible in a real world office or conference room.. Digigardener: nuff said!
"harv": degree of anonymity "akejay": But what if they could have rolled out videophones cheap and plugged it in RJ-11? peanut: there are some extra communication that happens in vw interaction guddy: my pleasure! nomad: Faces are important . . . hands too . . . but how will the majority of humanity, being technological- have-nots enter these world of ours? Or will this be an exclusive party? clack: ah! peanut: would that depend on need? nemo: hmm.. sally: i think it is at this point "akejay": How can we question economic failure morally? Was the technology at fault or its marketers? clack: We have to recognize our power and use it justly peanut: seeing how much of this tech has been profit driven, whose fault is it? sally: no , technology is not at fault, but it IS exclusive! peanut: true sally "Derek": This seems like a loaded issue nomad: It depends on a lot of things . .. . us mostly! "Derek": People are somewhat responsible Digigardener: yes I think that avatar cyberspace will be the truly new medium of human communication in the new century sally: absolutely "akejay": an expensive phone is exclusive. Half of the world may have never made a phone call. Digigardener: but it won't be available or attractive to all ommm: let's go into our next topos -- evolution spans1: The imaginative play using avatars is more akin to a radio play "Derek": People can wander the house and do other tasks while talking. In video you lose that luxury Digigardener: i was in Swaziland in Africa and everyone used cell phones :) peanut: yes digigardener - some folks don't have phones yet supernova: k "akejay": telephones are a good analogy for avatar-phones... nomad: How will "the people" . . . "the masses" get into these worlds . . . or will they? blip: yo "LabRat": well I finally caught up with ya'll ommm: let's go to the Labyrinth, which is the black ball with white spots "akejay": This one over here? ommm: yes that's it ommm: i will walk up to the Labyrinth ball so you can see it better "billyat": it's a grey triangel for mee "billyat": but it has a warp on it ommm: well, it might be just loading for you "akejay": Whoa. "billyat": yeppers "billyat": i'll click it anyway "LabRat": ok now maybe I'll be around for the conversation. "akejay": Hey! "akejay": *whimper* "Claudia": hei peanut: whimper akejay? supernova: nice wallpaper "akejay": I want a button. nemo: heheh...
ommm: okay so let's continue our discussion of biota and evolution ommm: where are we going with artificial life and avatars, Bruce? "akejay": hey peanut! guddy: where is everybody? spans1: What, or who is Biota? Digigardener: ok folks if you bring up the page:www.biota.org Digigardener: it will give you some background blip: Is there such a thing as digital biology "akejay": Yeah, where are we going Bruce? Digigardener: well we (the biota.org group anyway) believe that authentic evolution and biological emergence will occur.inside a rich, inhabited virtual world cyberspace sometime in the next decades. "Claudia": very interesting... blip: How bout consciousness? "akejay": Evolution is already occurring right here in the room. sally: will avatars become self-reproducing artificial life forms? real: yeah "akejay": Mine will. blip: iteration of false Idea? "billyat": holy Holodeck Digigardener: well we have different types of evolution.. "akejay": Racing stripes, too. nomad: Digigardener, Do you see humanity as having a role in the global brain . . . should such a sentient being ever evolve? What would that be? sally: I think consciousness is too much to ask now for biota!!!!!!!!!! Digigardener: memetic. which is the evolution of ideas, symbolic stuff, memory etc "Skipper": Isn't that just like saying our televisions will come alive? Digigardener: genetics.. "Derek": Evolution is a wonderful, but over general word "akejay": TV is alive. It talks to me. Hypatia: yes what is your working definition of "global brain" ? I have heard many connotations in past 15 years nomad: Aren't we well beyond the need for avatars then? Digigardener: forms that compete for resources and evolve both on their own and under the selection pressure of users.. "billyat": how would you know if a machine has consciousness sally: If you look at the history of life on earth , millions of years passed by with just bacteria and proto life like viruses...just be alive and replicating is a hard enough feat!!! much less consciousness! Digigardener: so avatars are people in-world, biotas are a class of evolving agents blip: its exponential nemo: does biota relate to communication? "harv": ..that can 'learn'? nomad: So it is also a model of human selection too? "akejay": How about avatars are a new limb, a new organ of human biology in cyberspace? topcat: whoa folks, let him get a word in edgewise Digigardener: there is a book chapter I wrote on this at: http://www.biota.org/book/chbi/ nomad: . . . of who gets in . . . who do not get in nemo: hehe... Digigardener: well yes.. avatars are like a prosthetic of a human being, his/her ideas, expression "akejay": Is it all about the proximity or speed of your connection? Is that the economic divide of cyberspace? blip: Mind/body nomad: So who will get in? clack: How , what process evolves consciousness from a virus? Digigardener: well I don't know about consciousness in digital biota blip: Iterative chaotic circumstance Digigardener: I think they will be at the evolutionary level of a "slime mold" clack: Is that not required for life? clack: Slime mold is aware... "akejay": Yay for slime mold! sally: consciousness? "LabRat": are the chat 'bots an early form of biotas? Digigardener: slime molds are collectives, single cells that come together and form a single reproductive unit nomad: That kind of life does not need us. clack: Treees feeeel
Digigardener: excellent example of a distributed organism "billyat": i like the term "self awareness" Digigardener: so imaging a slime mold moving through the net blip: Are not all things collectives clack: If they want' nemo: whoa, that's kinda freaky "akejay": Symbiogenesis. clack: Wh-? nomad: I use the word "life' loosely. "LabRat": distributed search agents? Digigardener: i think emergent biological forms in-world will be quite different than carbon based forms clack: okay! Digigardener: but of course they are all based on information in the end "LabRat": would we recognize their intelligence or consciousness? "Skipper": Avatars are not beings, but representations of beings. Artificial life is not life, but a simulation of life. Talk about evolution is merely metaphor, right? "billyat": you can only be aware of self awareness in yourself so there's no point in talking about it in anything else clack: Los Angeles is a simulation of Los Angeles Digigardener: well what is life, information structures changing over time? at one level that is all it is blip: what's real skipper? supernova: hah ha "akejay": REcognize intelligence? In dolphins? On other worlds? How could we talk to things on other planets if we can't talk to things on this one. sally: our DNA is a code of information Digigardener: Richard Dawkins and the selfish gene guddy: avatars, by definition are "personifications" not "representations" Thus, they may have own life Digigardener: gene nemo: that's true akejay nomad: So . . . do you see humanity as having a role in the global brain . . . should such a sentient being ever evolve . . . or do you long to transcend the flesh? blip: Life:?? Digigardener: well I think the net as a whole is emerging as a kind of meta lifeform "akejay": The Other Fruit. Digigardener: Kevin Kelly writes that technos=bios, technology is biology blip: In that it's made by life forms? guddy: what kind of meta life form? vetunimi: the IBM did "akejay": "beyond life" sally: global brain is extension of human life..i buy that
Digigardener: the net exists and grows by feeding on *human attention span* nomad: Yes it is but how do we negotiate our place in it? "LabRat": akejay - having a common mode of communication would be essential. Although we might recognize intelligent behavior, even if we cant communicate with it. Digigardener: in fact grain, cows, pets, etc all exist because of *human attention span* ommm: the Net is feeding on us now...! Digigardener: you got that right! guddy: sure, but we are also feeding the net! nemo: heheh "akejay": You can recognize intelligent behavior? Are the stars alive? Do our fates reflect theirs? nomad: We are food for the emortals! Hypatia: what is the difference between consciousness and communication? "LabRat": feeding on our attention span? that is fast food! "akejay": a six pack. Digigardener: so this "new biology" is about a marriage of mind, meme, biotes, attention, environment, speed, evolution, change above all ommm: hah nemo: maybe food for ourselves Hypatia: if we think of synapses and life forms peanut: can one be w/o other Hypatia? nomad: Or those who seek immortality . . . clack: Alzheimer's "LabRat": akejay - we also need to be on roughly the same time scale. I can sometimes recognize intelligent behavior in humans Digigardener: the thoughts are coming fast and furious! blip: holistic? "akejay": it's too bad cyberspace has no laugh track. it felt like that one died. guddy: biology has always been about putting everything together and making it work nemo: maybe we are feeding ourselves with info and feeding the net with our collective consciousness Digigardener: do you know what life is trying to get into cyberspace? nomad: Eat and be eaten . . . oh flames that we art! spans1: check out http://www.informatik.umu.se/~rwhit/AT.html#EncAuto , The Encyclopedia Autopoietica Autopoiesis & Enaction Compendium. for a model for evaluating autopoietic entity Hypatia: I am trying to get a handle on the "brain" idea -- I mean why that word, why not global "mind"? Digigardener: this is the singularly biggest question of our times? "akejay": They tried sitcoms without laugh tracks. Nobody liked the sound of laughing alone. "LabRat": consciousness is communication - with yourself "Skipper": I can see programs as close analogies to simple life. I can see routers as playing a role much like an axion. But a picture on a screen is not a program; it is the output of a program. That's where I have problems. Digigardener: why is life using us as a proxy to get into cyberspace folks? nomad: Mind? peanut: GOOD Q HYPAT!! nemo: i like Hypatia's idea! vetunimi: to reproduce a faster way of being? blip: Cyberspace is a product of living organisms!! peanut: Yes what does it imply to say brain vs. mind? Digigardener: well i have an opinion on that if you would like to hear it.. "akejay": The mind-brain problem? peanut: please speak digi Digigardener: it is about survival! clack: yeh "LabRat": to extend itself beyond the bounds of the single organism with its limited capacity and life span nomad: How metaphysical? nomad: How metaphysical? Who needs that? We have automation and automata! "akejay": Survival of the fittest! The fittest for survival of course! Digigardener: life has evolved with chemistry; life therefore weighs something and is therefore stuck at the bottom of gravity well topcat: In her book, How We Became Posthuman, Hayles tells a story bout the Macy Conferences where emergent consciousness was hotly debated by several cyberneticists Digigardener: and do you know why this is bad for life? "akejay": Oh that's beautiful Digi! clack: Why?
Digigardener: termination "akejay": We're not massless and timeless! topcat: the idea seemed to come out that everything: the universe, us, consciousness, is in a feedback loop nomad: "survival" of who? avatar: ? Digigardener: the Earth is ultimately a tomb for life "akejay": Light is free. peanut: well, when life begins, it ends too blip: termination isn't bad!! Digigardener: and I believe that if the collective genome has a sense of this.. "akejay": "Ride the Light"!? "billyat": entropy nomad: Kill or be killed? avatar: light never ages! blip: termination=regeneration Digigardener: it is trying any way to find a way to propagate "LabRat": the earth will ultimately end, but if life gets off the earth it may live longer. Hypatia: so cyberspace is like flight or freedom? Atalanta Fugiens? "Derek": I get the feeling that you don't belief in eternal life Digigardener: (dorion sagan) Digigardener: if life does not weigh anything it can travel at the speed of light Digigardener: across the solar system in one hour clack: Or better "akejay": Massless, ageless... nomad: Assimilate or die! Digigardener: look at Galileo nemo: yes that's true.... Digigardener: the spacecraft at Jupiter now Digigardener: and life can evolve oh so fast peanut: what life are we referring to exactly, ours as humanity? or this cyber stuff? "billyat": no subjective time is required to cross the galaxy at the speed of light Hypatia: ahhh freedom from time and space, then Digigardener: but life still needs an atomic matrix to live inside Digigardener: digital biota "akejay": Is there a difference, peanut? blip: Without termination? Digigardener: life seeks a way around termination clack: Digital involves atoms? "akejay": The atomic matrix is stored on planets. Digigardener: and we are its vehicle folks nomad: Perhaps we can do that now if we try . . . and still preserve this flesh. Digigardener: we may be its only chance nemo: yes.. you might say that. blip: accepts termination? Digigardener: something to think about! nemo: alright "Skipper": Who will keep the hydrogenerators running? supernova: k ommm: this is a perfect moment to fly to the light node called "Lumen" ommm: let's move our talk through cyberspace to the next topos avatar: yes, lumen! ommm: you see the red cube? nemo: ? nemo: hydrogenerators? "akejay": The humans will keep them running. Digigardener: next stop folks.. the red cube "Derek": which one? nomad: "The universe in a grain of sand" and all that . . . "Skipper": to run the electricity for our eternally living offspring ommm: place cursor on cube and it says Lumen node ommm: then click on it to go to lumen
"akejay": ooh, I'm all alone! nemo: hmm.. avatar: or join me real: where is it? nemo: join me.. "akejay": Hey avatar! ommm: it 's right here Digigardener: wow we are here ommm: see it now? Digigardener: still have 29 of us "Derek": not yet sally: nope nemo: hehe "LabRat": oops pardon me for being inside you "akejay": I'm following you, avatar... supernova: bright in here! nemo: yeah... a little too bright "akejay": Need shades. blip: is this an eyeball? Digigardener: great space sally: i never did find that silly red cube topcat: lol lab rat "akejay": Ooooh, preeetty... clack: too white Digigardener: but anyone have thoughts about the biota topic? "akejay": The topic is too white? clack: i mean this place, not commerce "Skipper": Don't go into the light, carol ann!! Digigardener: if so you can join the biota.org list at www.biota.org "akejay": I didn't wear my tie. "akejay": What's on biota.org? nemo: gallery? "akejay": Beware the Light! topcat: I am still wondering why you see life as embattled...may be it is not engaged in a struggle at all... guddy: was this a rendering problem or is somebody using space-drugs? weird transition... nemo: hmm.. sally: i like this place Digigardener: memories of terence mckenna nemo: hey mike? nemo: hmm... avatar: heh heh "LabRat": odd, if you go out and look back, the space disappears leaving only the avatars clack: why mc kenna? Digigardener: so folks, here is an open question: nemo: alright "akejay": He bailed on Palenque! I guess he was busy... Digigardener: avatar cyberspace is not a commercial success; in fact it is a downright dud nomad: Digigardener, it seems that the main driving force behind the evolution of the 3D virtual worlds is comes mainly from military . . . Digigardener: so few companies are working on this anymore blip: Is the need for a representational trade-space/avatar going to limit the bounds of the medium? clack: let him finish! Digigardener: so do we build this cyberspace by making this a selling space? blip: sorry clack: ! Casay: No Digi supernova: hmm Digigardener: or keep this in the community.. build it bit by bit ourselves,, or mix the two? guddy: all spaces on the net so far have been commercial dud "akejay": I know somebody who would use this as a selling space. Digigardener: if we can make a living here it will help us grow it. "akejay": Me. nemo: we should be able to build it ourselves Digigardener: your thoughts? and how will that change the design of worlds and who participates, who controls it? "akejay": What do you want to sell? topcat: it's an art form, which eventually becomes about commerce, but only when there is a commodity available for trade supernova: if you build it they will come "LabRat": I think one problem is the interface - typing and watching the world are not natural for humans "akejay": Art is for trade. nemo: no one should be able to control it blip: I think cyberspace is going to die out frankly Hypatia: space needs content to be viable -- space is a simple container, yes? Or is it really a conceptual ballast of sorts?
Digigardener: muds, moos etc are notoriously impossible to commercialize nomad: So are the social/communal applications are secondary, if not merely a facade for delivering eyeballs to the advertisers. nemo: everything should be free to transform Digigardener: multi player gaming is a commercial success (sort of) Casay: Need to let it grow on it's own "harv": mass-market planer (interface) devices, incl CRTs, for '3D' worlds. vetunimi: but they also did nemo: like the ever so changing net nomad: ? "akejay": The Internet commercialized. And it's all just stupid old documents? topcat: games are about providing an experience nemo: yeah... that's true vetunimi: there is software for the distant learning and training blip: yep topcat: art is about providing an experience "LabRat": There are more efficient ways to conduct commerce and exist on the web than recreating 3d spaces with strange devices for control nemo: and to be with friends "akejay": Is it that a document society can only navigate society in a document model? zg: Cybersapce also provides an experience topcat: money traditionally is derived from attaching experience to objects blip: chatting is about...... zg: and can also be art "Skipper": I think that space has been the metaphor that commercial developers have used from the beginning of the commercial Internet. Digigardener: but even AOL cannot figure out how to "monetize" its instant message community (don't you love those draconian ecommerce terms?) "akejay": So does the world. It provides experience, too. sally: I see it more as a community space nemo: heheh topcat: branding is about experience "Derek": Someone has done a fantastic job on the artwork here vetunimi: well professionals did monetize Digigardener: i think we need both.. but we have to have a strong and highly populated world first "akejay": It is monetized. You pay the phone company. The government taxes telcom. That is where the money's at. The pipes. Casay: I see all of the above, it depends on the user nemo: yeah.. more of like a neighborhood\ "akejay": You don't own any pipes. Digigardener: then that community will decide what commerce to engage in.. guddy: making money through cyberspace is a bit like trying to sell air nemo: don't we already? Digigardener: problem is chicken and egg: how do we get to a large community? "LabRat": and there are those making money from distributed teams - designers scattered around the planet now cooperate in VR and telepresence systems to build cars, etc. "akejay": There are plenty of people making money selling "cyberspace". Snake oil, too. Casay: Promotion, advertisement, givaways, events Digigardener: virtual worlds are still islands, isolated islands sally: there really isn't any solid cohesion in the VW community to make collective decisions "akejay": This is an event. nomad: Will Cyberspace become the new mall, or do you see the possibility the evolution of truly sovereign public space(s) in here, and if so, how? blip: isolations evolve or die Digigardener: we need to get something like the metaverse.. 3 million people inworld zg: the 'community' is very factional "akejay": I'm not at the mall. "akejay": Or am i? sally: except maybe the idea that the VW space should be for complete freedom Digigardener: god this is a loaded topic! "LabRat": to build the community you need to make it worthwhile to come and easy to be there. zg: just like the real world topcat: maybe the interface is best left to small groups "akejay": How could I hear 3 million people, Bruce? nemo: how about that game called 'Ultima'? peanut: It seems that the global brain can be seen collectively but lacks collective conscious nemo: it's one world "akejay": You said that the less people, the higher the baud rate... topcat: the telephone doesn't link millions of people all at once nemo: and a community vetunimi: i think the worlds could do much more not to be so isolated topcat: but ones and twos at a time but it makes money Digigardener: small groups, large numbers of small worlds co-joined nemo: yes Hypatia: cyberspace should never aspire to mall culture bleachhh Digigardener: we are designing such a system for NASA topcat: yes Casay: Get AW to develop the ActiveX thang and get it directly on web pages sally: i'm with Hypatia! zg: there are very few people willing to invest in this kind of thing Digigardener: that could support multi millions simultaneously "akejay": Mall culture can be funny. "akejay": Mall rats wasn't funny though. "LabRat": the phone enables group meetings too. Although much is lost in the reduction to voice only (and filterd voice at that) Digigardener: but we await their funding decisions..:)
ommm: separate browsers will always work for only a few "Skipper": hypatia, where there are enough people, there will be malls. Digigardener: you will all be able to walk on a virtual mars in 2005 (live) guddy: guys, who needs money n cyberspace. frankly? topcat: lot of folks would like that "akejay": We should await our own funding decisions, if we were alive? ommm: sounds like a killer app nomad: Through what kind of institution will they be joined . . a public one or private feudal ones? topcat: i mean mars "akejay": Wouldn't we be autocatalytic? "Derek": Talking about the digital divide... blip: ok nemo: money shouldn't be a subject in cyberspace zg: most of the world in aw for example are funded and built by individuals "Skipper": we don't have to aspire to malls. They follow us. Digigardener: remember folks, a big part of the rest of the net has gone crazy with greed, based around a few rather simplistic ideas "akejay": You could charge a lot for a Mars landing pay per view...;) sally: what is autocatalytic?????? Hypatia: malls in the East coast are havens for cross status groups because of.... air conditioning! "akejay": It fuels itself (auto+catalysis) Digigardener: and all around the document based web.. pages and pages, i hope this is not the only cyberspace we will see "billyat": is the NASA thingy gunna be based on RenderWare? blip: what's wrong with greed? nemo: akejay, lol "akejay": Air conditioning is the technology that allowed the South to industrialize. Digigardener: we need to have air conditioning here today! nemo: greed is wrong "Derek": lol topcat: well digi it's called cyber*space* after all... Casay: we need it to be able to be put directly 'on' the pages sally: greed is human blip: Money=life=evolution Hypatia: Bruce, can you broach the topic of collaborative environments -- as a genre itself of which virtual worlds is only one app -- they ARE growing in the educational community blip: blood "akejay": The urge to survive and propagate is wrong in excess. Digigardener: it may come down to the fact that you, here at this forum today, are some of the core of people who are passionate enough to build this medium "akejay": Virtue in moderation ;) nomad: And where oh where will democracy come from in here? "LabRat": 3d is being pulled now from the design and training applications zg: which technology do you favor, bruce? nemo: probably, digi... "Derek": Democracy is an ends to a mean Digigardener: yes indeed, collaborative virtual environments are spreading as a medium in educational institutions "akejay": This is an aristocracy of connectivity! Hypatia: 3d is becoming the next BIG tool for GIS nomad: I love 3D too! Hypatia: big market there and huge educational impact vetunimi: it would be nice..but i am not sure it is like that nemo: yes, 3d is very cool Hypatia: good one akejay "LabRat": hypatia, and with a host of problems - most GIS don't consider vertical very well. clack: 3D is an entertainment medium "akejay": Everything here looks really good. Fast rendering. nomad: #D for humans, not pumans! sally: cool, but i'm not wild about #D sally: 3d i mean nomad: 3D Hypatia: have you heard of virtual or 3D GIS? nemo: nope nomad: No what's that? "akejay": They do mapping, right? nomad: Yes. ommm: Bruce, do you know the work of the Principia Cybernetica Group? Digigardener: not familiar, have an URL mike> "LabRat": hypatia – Geo VRML is recently released as open source java Digigardener: ? ommm: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/GBRAIN-L.html ommm: the PCP group focuses on cognitive meaning and the Net as a brain nomad: . . . . blip: ..... nemo: how about something like half life... that's 3d gaming and it's pretty fast. "akejay": Java's not too slow? Hypatia: geoVRML is one but much more on horizon that are fully integrated Casay: to build a 'metaverse' you have to be able to keep up with the latest 3d technology on all platforms though and also be backwards compatible at the same time "Derek": Diablo2 will have interesting virtual social implications nomad: Fight or flight evolution? topcat: the fact is, these technologies are booming at an amazing rate...look back even ten years and now today nomad: into what? ommm: as yet, they seem to be rationalists who do not use avatars Digigardener: mike can we make all the URLs live when we publish the transcript? ommm: we are going to hear from them later this Summer guddy: is virtual 3D not rather like navigating a painting? I mean 'seeing' 3D is not 'being' 3D "LabRat": the digital earth project has some interesting future. USGS has been working hard to get seamless GIS - see gisdata.usgs.gov ommm: sure, we need to bring their attention to the body and body representations in c-space Hypatia: I thought Peter Russell coined the term, "Global Brain" ommm: don't know who coined the term, but PCP has been working at this for several years "akejay": .gov... nemo: yes... 3d is an art form almost clack: what is GIS? topcat: interesting, guddy Hypatia: geographic information systems nomad: Yes what is GIS? zg: nemo - why almost? "Derek": How many people have looked at the visuals recently? "akejay": I'm just looking at 3D in 2D... Digigardener: interesting, they may be at the virtual worlds conference ein paris in 3 weeks nomad: Oh. ommm: and have produced a long list of papers on systems theory and the net "Derek": I'm having a hard time just keeping up with the text. "akejay": Me too... nemo: umm... cuz it's almost business too... peanut: me too derek "LabRat": GIS includes the terrain, natural features and all the man-made "enhancements" ommm: we are studying them this summer and would like to see how avatars might fit into their cybernetics Digigardener: this is a good resource Hypatia: That is why I was asking about the working definition of global brain peanut: With this many people in here, it gets text heavy zg: why can't you have a business that is art or vice versa topcat: digi, do you know if there are any plans for a virtual worlds link to that worlds conference? nemo: hmm... ommm: seems that since Leibniz, computer scientists conceive computers as information devices Digigardener: pulling out my 1950 copy of Wiener's cybernetics Hypatia: it would be important to clarify as it, like "virtual" is a term loaded with varied connotations ommm: that serve cognitive brains "akejay": I'm an information device too! ommm: and not as communicative devices that produce gestures and feelings "akejay": My brain is cognitive, but my mind is "sub"conscious... Digigardener: yes how does cognition work in the worlds? blip: presence Digigardener: do you all walk away from this with a shared memory of the space? "akejay": I save it to file. ommm: is there a basic split between 3-D navigation and 2-D information? Digigardener: or is it all a jumble? does the 3D space help? zg: everyone will have a different memory clack: cognition is fluid "akejay": I need to have the helmet on man, peanut: sometimes its shared memory space other times not so zg: everyone has a different experience Digigardener: if we get wall sized screens will that immerse you more (this is coming) blip: Look at the text! "LabRat": more memory of the conversation than the space. Its hard to appreciate the space when there is so much text Hypatia: at the moment, text is all I will remember -- the conversation/s "akejay": I'll remember that it was hot. nomad: More like a jumble! Casay: some ppl become very immersed in this, others, see only the text Roberto: Hi all, Piet are you here ? "Skipper": I don't see the distinction. zg: agreed casay topcat: zg are right, it's each to his own "akejay": Boy, it's hot in here ;) "Skipper": communication is transmitting information. nomad: i always need to reread the logs. guddy: it's shared memory space but we don't share the same memory - due to technical lapses Digigardener: maybe it depends on how each of us cogitate? "akejay": I should be transmitting you some of this heat. "LabRat": diggigardner - I'm sitting in front of three 8ft projection screens right now. zg: maybe the next stage of evolution is to be able to deal with teh visuals and multi-threaded text at the same time Digigardener: going out of body helps get an overview Casay: I also think it depends on our overall experience with the medium peanut: I feel like that too Akeday "akejay": Maybe through the power lines. They could carry signal too. "niranjan": my first time here. sure would like a guide spans1: the response from my artist peers at uni is kind-of why bother? nomad: But we do share something . . . "LabRat": all dark while I type on this 19" monitor peanut: I mean too akejay supernova: perspective is always good Casay: and what's going on at the time spans1: I'm out on a limb "akejay": Man, it's a good thing you can't smell me. "Derek": lol, Labrat "akejay": I've been wearing this T-shirt since this morning topcat: plus it is easy for someone with no familiarity to not see the forest from the trees nomad: Yes, these worlds need a lot of aesthetic help. "akejay": Some senses you don't want in cyberspace? Digigardener: yes, it is getting unbelievably hot here now.. i think silicon valley is about to burst into flames peanut: There's something to be said for non smelling avatars sally: nice dance nemo spans1: Its like Why 3D? "akejay": The asphalt's melted. zg: this is at least a transatlantic if not global meeting nemo: haha Casay: if I were here, alone I would explore and remember the space, given the amount of text and ppl right now, I'll remember the conversations nomad: Renderrrrrring sucks still! topcat: well the world is 3d for one thing nemo: thanks sally "LabRat": Its not too bad here by the beach. About 74 deg F "akejay": Global warming rules. Did you see Maverick's during El Nino?? Hypatia: 3d gives us two things 2d doesn't spans1: Personally I was floored and lost for an answer ommm: Bruce, we've kept you on the hot seat now for an hour ommm: and we want to thank you for all the highly stimulating ideas ommm: you've shared with us ommm: we will never think about this space the same Digigardener: the pleasure was mine mike Hypatia: 1) social space and 2) degrees of freedom "akejay": How about the snowpack in Tahoe! On Webcam! blip: thanks supernova: thanks ommm: the log files will show some sparkling, shining moments nomad: Thanks. peanut: thank you Digigardener topcat: take care everyone sally: thank you ! spans1: yeah what a hoot!!! "LabRat": nomad, rendering is limited more by the loadable data and least common denominator, and by the designer time/tools Casay: See ya Digi :-) ommm: please have a cool drink and relax under the trees "Skipper": Thank you Digigardener. "billyat": yeah, thanx digd Digigardener: if any of you want to come and visit "the farm" here "Derek": As we say in Starcraft, gg Hypatia: thanks digi! nomad: ding . . twinkle . . nemo: hehe.. Digigardener: let me know. we like visitors www.damer.com jokester: thank you nemo: Starcraft's cool Digigardener: in person that is :) ommm: thanks to all you avatars who 've joined us for the summer opening "Claudia": thanks digi... "LabRat": Thanks Bruce, Mike. Its been fun. Hypatia: thanks ommm -- finally able to come in on Wed since it is Summer EDUHML Caretaker: :((( supernova: was fun guddy: how do I get as person on to www.damer.com? EDUHML Caretaker: sterkte nemo: this was cool digi! "akejay": This was so cool. the graphics were great. Digigardener: thank you for all your outpouring of opinion, ideas, links Digigardener: you are a great community of people! EDUHML Caretaker: dat ik jullie bij ons uitnodig komt omdat er steeds keleine openingen in agendaas waren "akejay": Yay Netherlands! Digigardener: tot ziens "LabRat": Although I think face time is still better. clack: thanks, digi? EDUHML Caretaker: jazeker "billyat": stay kool digi -- santa anna or no ommm: we are products of a good gardener! Roberto: Ciao Cinzia !!!!! clack: ! nemo: You're a great speaker, Digi! "akejay": All Hail the Gardener! Digigardener: gardening is hard work folks, and full of random occurrences real: Thanks Digi Digigardener: thanks (blushing) EDUHML Caretaker: tot ziens Bruce "akejay": What world is the *after party* at? Digigardener: everyone line up for a picture!
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