******************************************************* * The EduVerse chat session: Wed Jun 28, 2000 9:24 AM * ******************************************************* blip: Everybody had their coffee? nemo: nope topcat: I hear the chapel bells ringing...must be time for school nemo: yeah, maybe but, i'm too sleepy ommm: what time in India, guddy? guddy: Just 10 pm, just back from office... spans1: but last time was soo worth it nemo: heheh vbi1: hi CliffJ: I'm Cliff Joslyn, logging in from the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and a long-time colleague of Heylighen's CliffJ: And no, we don't glow in the dark, and I know nothing about any disks. . . ;-> ommm: Cliff has written quite a bit for Principia Cybernetica topcat: nice to meet you CliffJ: Francis, Val Turchin, and I established PCP together in the 1989-1990 time frame sally: hello everybody! nemo: hello ommm: Principia Cybernetica Project CliffJ: About other colleagues, there are a number of folks we've been working with since that time topcat: when I left before CJ, I read the intro abstract to the PCP you all wrote in 1991 FrancisH: Aha, I seem to have found the place where iam expected.. ommm: yaaaayyyy!!! topcat: welcome! CliffJ: Good evening, Francis! FrancisH: Hi, Cliff! nemo: Hi francis spans1: flap flap flap blip: Hello Mr. Heylighen ommm: Welcome Francis Heylighen topcat: good friends meet in world guddy: Namaskar sally: hi francis! ommm: glad you could make it today FrancisH: Thanks for inviting us
ommm: we really are eager to understand your Global Brain thinking and how perception might fit into it CliffJ: I'll leave things to Francis now, maybe kibitzing just a bit before I move on to other work this morning guddy: is it Global Brain thinking or thinking with a Global Brain? FrancisH: Speaking about the global brain, I just had a strange experience with an article about it in New Scientist ommm: we just read that article, what happened? FrancisH: The article made it look as if it was some kind of high tech version of Big Brother FrancisH: I'm not very happy with the way it is presented , but am glad with the publicity sally: the article made it sound like you were devilishly happy about it too! FrancisH: Yes, I am happy with the global brain, but not with the implication that we should be afraid of it, because i believe it is an intrinsically positive development clack: Please Elaborate Francis guddy: where is this optimism coming from, Francis? FrancisH: I see the global brain as a natural development of society becoming more intelligent and more efficient. blip: as one organism FrancisH: That means less ignorance, misunderstandings, conflicts and just confusion clack: What about the issue of control? Even human individuals have control issues. blip: numb? guddy: old confusions have always been replaced by new confusions, no? sally: i guess people get concerned when we talk about everyone becoming one organism, hence the Big Brother Control implication...how do yousee it? ommm: the URL for the New Scientist article: http://www.newscientist.com/nl/0624/global.html FrancisH: In a sense, society has always been organism, we just didn't see it because it moved so slowly nemo: i guess that's true FrancisH: Now, internet technology makes the social thought process happen at the speed of our own thoughts, thus we can recognize it sally: but is this organism always at odds with its own body parts? You should we address cultural conflicts that prevent this one organism from working as one? clack: But it is a thought process confined to a certain social class? FrancisH: Therefore, if we believe that society has progressed since the Middle Ages we should not be afraid if this progress continues CliffJ: I think the issue breaks out in a short and a long view. In the short run, all these issues with e.g. internet privacy etc. are all there sally: go cliff guddy: whether we are afraid or not does not matter, progress will continue anyway clack: afraid? or concerned about how it goes CliffJ: In the medium run, all technology is inherently neutral, and it is up to us as ethical actors to use it wisely clack: social consciousness spans1: virtuality is an extension of the human ability with tools blip: How do we do that CliffJ: But in the long run, we in PCP hold that ethics is ultimately a function of a system's ability to survive and evolve CliffJ: Thus, as Francis said, the evolution of the social level has always been present, but now being accelerated tremendously CliffJ: This move is ultimately WITH the evolutionary trajectories, leading to "higher" forms of complex organization within this evolving global society clack: !! FrancisH: And since all systems, people and societies have an in-built tendency to try to survive, they will use the technologies ultimately to do just that. nemo: ? topcat: there seems to be an unstated equation here that greater rationality will lead to greater compassion. Is this the case? FrancisH: Abuse of technologies, e.g. for building nuclear bombs, are dangerous, but temporary aberrations. spans1: it's a cultural thing guddy: sure, but we are not here in VW for pure survival, some are for fun, others for learning, others for their homework assignments FrancisH: By becoming more aware of these evolutionary tendencies, we will be better able to steer technology in the positive direction and avoid dangers clack: It seems to be a sort of fatalistic way of accepting the possibility of negative effects nemo: yes that's true guddy FrancisH: Of course, survival is only a very high-end long-term goal. In the shorter term, I would speak about quality of life blip: Like capitalism nemo: yes? hello CliffJ: Regrettably, my normal work responsibilities don't allow me as much time as I would like for such activities as this. Therefore I'll now leave you in Francis's capable hands, and look forward to meeting you all later. FrancisH: Bye, Cliff! sally: bye cliff ommm: Cliff, thanks for stopping by clack: Thanks CliffJ! blip: Bye cliff CliffJ: Later, all you birds and insects and such. . . nemo: later cliff spans1: squawk guddy: quality of life doesn't hit it either, some of us screw their night's sleep to get on here topcat: is there then an implication that, left to their own, these technologies would threaten survival? nomad: glurp FrancisH: I dont see why technologies on their own would be dangerous. Normally a technology s developed to solve some problem, not to create one. clack: anti gun control? topcat: but unexpected uses often result in a quality of life diminishment blip: Black market? FrancisH: Of course, technologies have unforeseen side effects, but in the long run the effect tends to be positive topcat: and you yourself suggest that planning is needed clack: Killing is not an unforeseen consequence of a gun. guddy: neither a side effect blip: True dat nomad: but doesn't sometimes technological innovation outpace our capacity to integrate it into our lives thoughtfully? ommm: Francis, can we move to another area of our world where we address issues of perception... spans1: me nervous too about getting lost but not about our symbiosis with machines nemo: yup yup FrancisH: Guns are initially developed to protect oneself. In a world were you feel safe, you would no longer need a gun ommm: okay, let's not get lost -- too lost ;-) blip: shall we move? sally: okay. nemo: i guess we shall FrancisH: OK nemo: where to man? ommm: okay, there's a world called VWD blip: ommm? ommm: you can get there by using the Worlds list on the left panel of your browser guddy: you see, everybody's nervouse! ommm: or you can go to Teleport (at the top menu) and use "To" and put in the letters VWD spans1: 123go ommm: you can also open the Contacts tab on the left panel and right click there to Add "ommm" and then right-click on ommm nemo: this place is weird ommm: good -- everybody made it topcat: hope we can return to our global brain discourse ommm: can you use your PageUp key to look straight up? sally: I'm triple, a double rip in the space time continuum nemo: heheh topcat: in first person nemo: i'm in here too ommm: you will see a Flickering cluster up there clack: Whew! ommm: now use your Plus key to fly up to the cluster ommm: guddy are you finding the way? use the Teleport on the top menu and enter "VWD" in the "To" box, now use PageUp to look straight up ommm: can you folks join me up here in Flicker? clack: i am lost! nemo: everything's blinking nomad: or join me nemo: heheh blip: hey nomad nemo: the blinking panels
clack: yay I'm here! topcat: so where are we in our discussion? sally: thanks nomad, i joined finally i am oriented nemo: interrupt? blip: Lets consolidate guddy: this lego fellow just walked through me. it it allowed to do that? clack: FrancisH, if you press your + key you'll come up guddy: 'course we lost F ommm: good, Francis, you're here! clack: Hi Francis! ommm: good navigating! FrancisH: I think I' m up nomad: bravo! blip: pinkies unite!!!
ommm: so this area, called Flicker, brings up the issue that bothers me most ommm: about the Global Brain theory clack: yes? ommm: and that is the issue of perception FrancisH: Yes? ommm: since Leibniz, computer scientists have downplayed the role of bodily sensation in theories of knowledge clack: go on? ommm: and i wonder if the global brain will respect perception or regard it as a primitive sub- cognitive function of savages FrancisH: in my view, to have real intelligence you must have sensory-motor interaction with the world FrancisH: thus perception is definitely a fundamental part of the global brain FrancisH: but most global brain perception will take place through us human components of the GB FrancisH: though you can also imagine some sensors (e.g. satellite mapping) directly connected to the computer network ommm: how can this 3-D space, for instance, belong to the GB? nomad: how would individual perceptions of space be comprehended by the GB? blip: would they? FrancisH: I haven't really though yet about how to integrate VR spaces in the GB guddy: how does tactile perception belong to GB clack: could avatars enter "real" space and in that way interface with our global intelligence? ommm: usually the West takes "brain" to be abstract processor, not felt phenomenal space FrancisH: the GB is essentially emergent from all our thoughts and sensations, therefore its own sensations can be of a different order than tactile, visual or auditory clack: Like, gathering sensory data through sensory technology? ommm: but the GB has "sensations"? blip: Will the GB have a single intelligence or always a collective? FrancisH: "sensations" in the GB are all the data that have an impact on its functioning, such as user actions or texts, or events registered by specialized sensors guddy: sounds like data input to me "Grendel": unless there is unity of purpose, how can you consider the phenomenon a "brain"? FrancisH: i don't believe in real difference between single and collective intelligence., As Minsky pointed out in The Society of Mind, all minds are collective in a sense guddy: a bit smoother than keyboard hacking, though blip: Is GB just another classification nomad: the emergent sensations of the GB sound like one of those difficult abstract "7th dimension" concepts, not like human perceptions sally: and are these sensations selective, that is, the individual user can choose that the GB not take him some of the his/her thoughts/actions? blip: well put nomad FrancisH: I also don't believe that we have a unity of purpose mot of the time, we have different goals and values simultaneously, that mostly happen in parallel but sometimes conflict clack: And Singularity is a cure ? ommm: like this multi-tasking experience in virtual world... guddy: you mean parallel or conflicting, omm? nomad: ommm, this is a sublime moment FrancisH: yes, good example though I might be more comfortable just having to type, not also having to navigate ommm: isn't it pathological not to unify and harmonize the various mental voices? clack: And that would represent unity of purpose... FrancisH: harmonization is a process that is constantly going on in the background, I call it seeking for coherence, but it is not constantly successful ommm: but it seems to be a necessary background task (necessary for sanity, well-being) FrancisH: the main thing is to achieve consistency, no do one thing and its opposite a the same time ommm: non-contradiction guddy: Francis, give an example of harmony that already happens in the background.. clack: But humans always do that! FrancisH: for me coherence is non-contradiction, connection and support FrancisH: support is when one thought or perception confirms another one "Grendel": in order to impact anything in the real world, wouldn't the GB have to achieve at least some level of consensus? guddy: example, not definition, please blip: ..... ommm: my avatar Pinkie can discombobulate in different directions when i dance
nemo: heheh nemo: i noticed clack: yeah these pinky things are wacked ommm: disharmonious, disjointed nomad: a certain lack of coherence, ommm! nemo: weird guddy: how can we sign up for these wacky avatars? ommm: get a pinkie avatar and do the Funky or Egyptian
FrancisH: consensus can again be emergent, as in the market deciding that there is a certain demand for certain goods topcat: seems like we are missing some foundational systems assumption that you take for granted FH? blip: Just what I wanted to hear topcat!!! FrancisH: evolution means that you have constantly things bumping into each other, sometimes they fit: coherence, sometimes they don't and continue bumping ommm: if we do it together we can become a Global Glob clack: Francis are you saying the market is a kind of brain because of its consensus? blip: hehehehe ommm: weeee
FrancisH: not because of its consensus but because it translates a mass of disjointed to decisions to buy/sell into a coherent price clack: could a price be other than coherent? nemo: maybe we could connect to different bodies? topcat: can we switch heads and bodies? guddy: pinkie is cool. who came up with this? ommm: try it nemo: ??? topcat: almost!! guddy: can we exchange arms and leg with each other? nomad: perception also involves integrating sometimes disjointed cues into an integrated world view nemo: heheh nemo: i wish clack: I think the market is more like a river. nomad: but the GB's perception still eludes me ommm: sometimes our perceptions can harmonize with our thought FrancisH: it is a difficult to imagine whatever way you look at it ommm: like when Pinkies do the Funky while thinking about the scattered Global Brain
clack: I think a brain has to have a heart attached or it isn't really a brain. guddy: I offer my head for an index finger! blip: That's a harmony not a thought nemo: i want another leg! FrancisH: yes, the GB has a heart and lots of other organs too! nemo: so it's living? guddy: what sort of heart, Francis? clack: !!!!!!!!!!? blip: Economy = life blood topcat: when thought harmonizes with perception, this is an experiential understanding rather than an intellectual one alone
guddy: nemo: makes the heart or the brain live? nomad: a metaphorical heart? ommm: Francis: the GB resemble a giant human? The mind and heart writ large? FrancisH: functionally, the heart is what make the blood move, in our society that are the engines that drive trucks, planes, trains, etc, blip: I agree topcat topcat: what role for experience in the GB Francis? clack: I didn't mean that kind of heart. clack: I meant like the heart of a poet. nemo: hmm... blip: oh romantic heart clack: yes! FrancisH: I thought so, but if you mean feeling or emotion, I guess the GB may develop that too nomad: (time to boogie!) blip: Humans still exist topcat: emotion, sentiment, wind in the hair sally: collective soul blip: Gb= child of humanity nemo: heheh nemo: <------is insane... clack: Thank you blip. FrancisH: if the GB is emergent from us humans, then its feelings are emergent from ours. if the whole world is upset by some event, then you might say that the GB is upset as well ommm: this is a great scene with all the Pinkies!
topcat: I love the synchronous dancing on screen...it is poetic! nemo: rotf clack: How do we do a group Hug? sally: can we expect humans of the whole world to have a collective feeling on any issue?? nemo: hmm... blip: Were then is the distinction guddy: Egyptian is upper pyramid moves around lower pyramid? nemo: upper pyramid? ommm: everybody do the Egyptian dance! clack: of body guddy: nemo, do the Egyptian and ou will understand clack: Somebody get a screen capture
topcat: I think sally has a point here.. will human nature, even manifest in the GB, achieve harmony? nemo: oh... i see ommm: i'm getting a group portrait clack: ooga booga! guddy: somebody's taken my upper pyramid? blip: Gb is a manifestation of Human nature! FrancisH: hopefully it will achieve more and more coherence/harmony. at least the GB should facilitate that clack: everybody's flying apart1 ommm: i like the "facilitation" aspect ommm: everyone fears "imposition" topcat: so back to my earlier question: does increased rationality lead to increased compassion? FrancisH: that is the whole point: these processes are already taking place in the UNO and other forums, but the internet can make them happen on a larger scale and more smoothly clack: not with Spock nemo: heheh topcat: noble aspirations... clack: What is UNO? FrancisH: Yes, I don't understand where the article got that whole idea from that the GB could "impose" things ommm: will the GB work for governments? FrancisH: UNO=Unitized Nations Organization blip: Look how we've all become pinkies!!!- A collective!!
clack: oh sally: its was the choice of words, also implied by the writer. definitely had a bias in the writing FrancisH: I think government won't like the GB because they cannot control it sally: we've become the global pinkie! blip: The government may take part in it topcat: I am presently attending some teachings with HH the Dalai Lama and mind training hand in hand with compassion are definitely a part of his message FrancisH: big corporations won't like it either, because it is inherently open and democratic, not trying to dominate like Microsoft sally: its is unity in essence..its heart is FUN blip: hehehehe clack: Hmm... blip: True guddy: if not government, than big boys like the big M? ommm: well, maybe we should conclude our talks today by visiting the site called TRON sally: okay! blip: I'm there ommm: you need to use your Back arrow ommm: to return to the beginning of VWD world clack: okay ommm ommm: where we came in sally: we must leave our beloved pinkie form behind? guddy: ommm, now the pulsing or the romantic heart? nemo: ok nemo: aww... ommm: or just teleport back to the VWD sally: there is nothing romantic about TRON, merely disorienting nemo: hehehe clack: I like being disoriented if its fun... guddy: do we de-pink now? nemo: blip? nemo: where ya going? clack: lets dance! ommm: click on the black blob, place your cursor on it and it says TRON sally: ywah nemo? nemo: hehe.. clack: woohoo nemo: ahhh!!!! topcat: there there clack...like Monty used to say: come on down! clack: where are our avatars? nemo: ywah? ommm: i'm going over to the blob now nemo: which avatars? sally: doot ddooot doot nemo: heheh guddy: no black box, sorry sally: doot doot doot nemo: lalalalalala ommm: this blob here topcat: clack step fwd sally: computer noises doot doot blip: blip blip clack: there's no bodies sally: you have been assimilated (Borg Voice) topcat: clack take a step forward clack: i did! ommm: just Join me
nemo: ewww.. sally: beep beep blip doot doot nemo: i don't like borgs nemo: heheh topcat: try another cause I can see you nemo: dooot dooot blip: blip blip clack: i can't go forward sally: too bad you have been assimilated doot doot blip: press up clack nemo: ding ding sally: eep nemo: heheh clack: this is really freakin weird ommm: (to FrancisH) use your Shift key to pass through the walls and join us sally: eep blip: uhoh FrancisH: no I lost you now ommm: he's coming nemo: hello francis clack: you have to get into the sky to find your body ommm: from here you can use Minus (numeric) and Shift to descend sally: sally in the sky--y with diamonds! sally: doot doot FrancisH: ok blip: LSD nemo: heheh nemo: lol topcat: Francis, you are descending like a deus ex machina!!!! nemo: you're sinking! nemo: heheh ommm: you made it! ommm: yaaaayyy FrancisH: got there topcat: it was funny to watch you come thru the ceiling
nemo: hehe ommm: we were looking for the GB nemo: he was melting guddy: so, am I now a bit or a byte or just a crude lame chip? FrancisH: i'm not sure we find it here... sally: GB is all around us FrancisH: well-said sally ommm: what value does a GB theory have if it is going to form itself automatically? topcat: any signs of life? nemo: we're all dots and bytes clack: good ? ommm sally: doot FrancisH: it will form itself on its won but there may be many different variations, some good some less good FrancisH: that's why it is worth reflecting on the possibilities and how we could steer it in the most positive direction sally: meno, we are all ribonucleic acids! ommm: how VR worlds help the GB?
nemo: heheh sally: bad spelling! nemo: that's my second name, meno nemo: heheh blip: I don't think we should interfere with GB development blip: We have no control over evolution nemo: hmm... why is that blip? FrancisH: the role of VR is something i still have to think about. cyberspace as a 3d representation information is definitely relevant nemo: oh sally: but be vigilant and informed guddy: are we developing the GB or is the GB developing us? sally: and lets not forget those in humanity who have not the access to this GB. topcat: I must say francis does a good job with multiple threads...he must have a well developed harmonizing element in his own brain! FrancisH: the collaborative aspect of connected VR world is definitely also an element that makes the system more GB like sally: those inhumanity who have not the access to even basic survival spans1: Is there a difference between Global Brain and say Pierre Levy's collective intelligence?? clack: can we assume the GB will somehow include even the disenfranchised? blip: social Darwinism sally? topcat: it is often a very poetic experience, not just an intellectual exercise clack: What is topcat?
FrancisH: those who don't have access to the GB yet, will get it much faster than most imagine, already internet connections are joining villages in Africa that don't have telephone\ guddy: hoho, says the voice from India! sally: social Darwinism has no heart topcat: Vworlds clack blip: indeed sally clack: Yes but Francis, Los Angeles has the highest rate of un immunized children in the world. topcat: you mean thru wireless Francis? clack: And we have lots of internet FrancisH: Pieere Levy's collective intelligence is strongly related to the GB, though i haven't studied it enough to say just where it differs sally: but if survival is more foremost, what do villages want to participate in the GB? ommm: PL seems unreservedly optimistic blip: Romanticism will get you nowhere sally: what will a starving person do with the internet? topcat: I disagree blip clack: Curiosity killed the cat FrancisH: survival for villages means first of all access to agricultural techniques and medical knowledge, and the GB can provide that in a cheap, easy and understandable way clack: But he couldn't live without it sally: actually could the internet/GB help humanity by providing? sally: in some way? topcat: global economy can have a direct impact on local starvation...see heifer.org for more info clack: Western agribusiness techniques? guddy: survival for villages means access to drinking water and some sort of shelter. Food once in a while helps, too sally: i think the problems with starvation in villages have to do with political situations not technological know how clack: Sorry. I should not be so cynical. sally: and THAT the GB may need to address. if GB is truly to become a collective clack: Yes Sally! FrancisH: the GB should increase democracy and awareness of problems far away clack: How can the GB include a political awareness? sally: GB must do more than create awareness. if it is sentient it must create change FrancisH: by informing people better about what is going on and how various individuals and communities influence the important events clack: hmmm topcat: I agree. The famous civil rights cry, Knowledge is power FrancisH: the change will come from us, after having become aware that we must do something and can do something sally: we are aware of a lot of bad things going in the world today, without the internet, and we still do nothing ommm: can the interests of the GB depart from the interests of humanity? guddy: Francis, the world works since centuries on a minimum of awareness towards the most basic needs in life. How will the GB brain help (or take a position) here? Can it do what dozens of aid and education programs couldn't? sally: i believe GB will create more awareness, yes, sally: but i don't know if change will come about from this awareness topcat: good question ommm FrancisH: the GB can help us focus on the most important problems and find the most effective ways to tackle them FrancisH: at present we are informed about what is sensational not about what is most relevant on a global scale guddy: how will the GB tackle humanitarian issues? clack: but it must be by consensus? topcat: can the GB have its own agenda of which we would not be aware? Can it have a subconscious for instance? clack: What do you consider to be important clack: And not sensational? blip: Don't you need a conscious before a sub-conscious? guddy: does GB know about intuition? topcat: i am finding the humanitarian drum rather wearying... FrancisH: the most important things are those that affect most people in the strongest way. Hunger for example is not as widespread as you might think ommm: Francis: we have kept you well over an hour and you have been most generous and brilliant topcat: wonderful! FrancisH: thanks, I am getting a little tired blip: thanks Francis!! ommm: we want to thank you for stimulating our thinking about the GB sally: thanks Francis guddy: flap flap blip: clap clap topcat: such a pleasure! clack: Francis, thank you for your time and energy! vbi1: thank you, francis blip: blip blip ommm: this is a very intense Forum and you sailed through the navigation wonderfully clack: yay yay ommm: thank you for joining us
sally: the issues of GB are definitely difficult issues, humanity is a difficult issue FrancisH: Ok, I'll leave you then and see you perhaps in another world sometime guddy: Francis, you are a good navigator! sally: thanks! spans1: clap clap ommm: please accept our thanks and congratulations on your excellent work blip: :) ommm: we need you and PCP to help us figure out the role of virtual worlds sally: bye! FrancisH: Bye! clack: :) topcat: please come back! ommm: so please don't be a stranger ommm: best wishes and thanks to all our participants today FrancisH: I'll start thinking more seriously about VR promise! clack: thanks for facilitating, ommm topcat: sorry I'll miss the class discussion of this session sally: thanks everyone blip: blip out. topcat: bet it's going to be heated! clack: adios ommm: bye everyone and see you again vbi1: bye spans1: thanks, cheerio ommm: the Flicker Dance was great ommm: thanks for coming to join our Forum guddy: ok, guys: is there an elegant way out of VWD or do you always pull the plug? topcat: bye gang
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