****************************************************** * The EduVerse chat session: Sun Jul 9, 2000 1:21 PM * ****************************************************** ommm: hey topc2at topcat: do you remember Tom Mancuso Rajah? Rajah: Hi every one, hi mike peanut: I've been touring Accd w/ Rajah for the last hour ommm: Hi Rajah! Good to see your connection is working! spans1: hi all ommm: hey spans topcat: I've been dowloading music from napster...oh my gosh! what a library of stuff... ommm: hey Raj, have you tried the bird avatars? Rajah: like that one spans1: whats funny peanut? peanut: how the avs stay still when people "whisper" ommm: yah!! Rajah: I really dig Shanubia ommm: birds feel better when you are in the open spaces ommm: yeah Shanubia is super peanut: birds glide topcat: yeah, see I always use shanubia too...
ommm: lot of people have been asking about time zones, about GMT and VRT, and when is 1:30 PST topcat: I am guessing it's about 2:30 am for you R? Rajah: vrt pst what do they mean' ommm: virtual reality time", go to your upper "Show" menu and choose VRT Rajah: its 4.30 Sunday morning 'here' peanut: thank you for joining us at so early an hour topcat: pacific standard time, except we're in daylight savings so it's PDT spans1: must say that I love some of these spaces that have recently evolved peanut: hello jokester~! topcat: ok, I thought you might be a bit earlier than sichuan, but it's the same... ommm: funny, my VRT says 6:33 and my clock says 1:26 Rajah: peanut - thanks for the tour peanut: a pleasure Rajah! ommm: peanut is a great coordinator spans1: hey it is a good idea to use VRT guddy: 2:00 am Sun morning in India Rajah: I like the hour topcat: are you a night owl? ommm: hour of imagination? Rajah: It just takes me that long to really wake up!! Rajah: hoot
topcat: I'm the exact opposite guddy: yes, almost as early as Rajah... ommm: actually, this is one of the biggest problems of the Web ommm: in my Deep Cyberspace seminars, it took weeks before we could figure out decent schedules for real-time meetings ommm: it's a real limit to global communication.... guddy: no, why, we are all here? No matter what time topcat: well, if it's more of a one on one thing, you can work it out... topcat: but a global cross section is naturally not going to work for everyone ommm: i notice that Rajah says it is 4:30 am "here" ommm: so he feels both here and "there" topcat: good point Rajah: yes now I am here and 'here' at the same time Rajah: bingo ommm: where are you, span? guddy: if we say local time, we say 'here' otherwise it's virtual standard (is not where?) spans1: 6.am in Australia ommm: so we go pretty much around the globe today? spans1: I'm still in yawn space ommm: yawnspace cyberspace topcat: these time comments make see that my geography of the Asia area really needs improvement ommm: mine too! spans1: hey it's one world topcat: i'd have thought Australia and Malaysia were pretty comparable ommm: hard to wrap our minds around the globe topcat: are you in eastern or western Australia? Rajah: and Malaysia and India Rajah: and so on topcat: yeah that too spans1: south is in the middle at the bottom Rajah: we are all comparable in the end guddy: simple: first India (2 am) then Malaysia (4:30 )and then Australia (6am) peanut: shall we begin? It's 1:35 ommm: okay, let's begin our show for the day ommm: and we are delighted to have Niranjan Rajah ommm: with us from Malaysia Rajah: its a pleaure to be here topcat: clap,clap,clap spans1: don't forget were already tomorrow ommm: we have several points to discuss (yesterday?) Rajah: right peanut: we are between today, tomorrow and yesterday ommm: and the first one is about your personal use of the web and the use of the web in Malaysia guddy: its' a pleasure to join you all nowhere at tomorrow... Rajah: ok Rajah: well I was frightened of computers even 5 years ago Rajah: I was an installation artist Rajah: doing my ma at Goldsmiths College London "Claudia": hello everybody Rajah: and my wife, Jane had to help me type up my thesis ommm: (to "Claudia") hi Claudia Rajah: I got my job in Malaysia 5 years ago "Claudia": hi ommm Rajah: found my Uni very IT intensive Rajah: and there was a network connection on my desk Rajah: I have not looked back ommm: so you became "computerized" then? guddy: yes, networking makes us look forward topcat: back...would be what kind of word would you now use to describe 'back'? ommm: what kind of installations did you do? Rajah: I was really trying (in retrospect) to remove space jokester: interesting Rajah: Ideas and 'movement' were more important peanut: vacuum? Rajah: and that is how I saw the Internet 5 years ago guddy: what media/material for your installations? Rajah: vacuum like text, photography Rajah: and I would work the walls and light in the space guddy: that means 'flat' 2D installations? Rajah: no the space was there but it became an idea topcat: so did you say a moment ago that you saw the web as a vacuum? spans1: I had a look through the links on your site earlier, Raj, very interesting work "Claudia": i didn't see the site yet... sally: what is your webspace? i would like to look too guddy: can we explain "very interesting", spans? "Claudia": brb spans1: Duchampian >> post Duchamp (3D) sally: what does brb mean? not lingo savvy Rajah: http://www.freespeech.org/eartasean ommm: be right back sally: oh spans1: 3D on the floor gallery installations Rajah: which brings us to the Malaysian scene ommm: yes, tell us about that spans1: but the web work was more my style, Raja Rajah: The site is an attempt to build a hub for E art in the region Southeast Asia spans1: the cultural differences that you work with are significant, eh, Raj? Rajah: and Malaysia is one of the countries that is investing heavily in the Internet nomad: Cool site! guddy: is there a sense for using networks for art in Malaysia? (not such a thing in India) Rajah: This I (sense)s what I have been developing in the last 5 years guddy: or big investments for commercial exploitation of the net? topcat: ommm you are dancing up a storm over there... spans1: ... the "censorship" issue Rajah: OMM just got me to look up from my keyboard .. not easy
ommm: yeah, we have this issue in avatar worlds topcat: yes, a little stretch is a good thing ommm: the split of word (linear, flowing down) ommm: and action (multi-level, going outward) Rajah: ontological split? ommm: think so? ommm: body / word split? nomad: Even in our 3D world . . . text still dominates, I fear . . . . ommm: brain / body? Rajah: In fact Multimedia is all about splits and joints ommm: let's move to Horse Heaven for our next topic topcat: yeah, somewhere in the middle of the screen and make like a ...vacuum, a rabbit hole, a something or other meet ommm: everybody see the Horse balloon in front? peanut: I prefer the rabbit hole idea ommm: to the right? "Claudia": back ommm: just click on the Horse balloon and you're in Horse Heaven guddy: how does the balloon look? topcat: well that kinda gets to the other side of the Looking Glass...which was one of the original books in the Alice series ommm: it has a half Horse on it and it's brownish (the horse) sally: like horses ommm: here, i'll walk up to it peanut: was the crash landed bird always here? ommm: see it now? just click on it topcat: that weird turkey-cum-eagle?
nomad: Dr. Rajah in an essay I read, you distinguish between "consciousness" (would that be being an autonomous "I") from "awareness" (by this I think you mean an awareness of being in the world) . . . can you expand on this a bit? Rajah: I think the western notions of being and knowing are defined by matter nomad: Hmmmm sally: if you click on the dead bird, it comes back to life Rajah: The body and then the 'consciousness of the individual' within it nomad: Well . . . . the body is material . . . .isn't it? guddy: partly, nomad peanut: we are more conscious of the material portions of our selves Rajah: the older notions of the east are less respectful of this material frame Rajah: it's just the head set, the programme Rajah: it's like a multi user system topcat: so would this account for systems of representation...that the west loves the body, while the east has gone beyond?
Rajah: the individual has his/her sense of being nomad: So the awareness is key to being, rather than the material, particular embodiment? "Claudia": what is the program you are talking? guddy: the body is temporary Rajah: actually east /west is a crude simplification topcat: given space considerations i thought I'd go with it, but sure, you're right Rajah: but how is that Rajah: in the Vedantic notion there is something bigger Rajah: and the individual ego is relative guddy: Vedanta emphasizes the 'idea' of the superior (not the individual) nomad: I was going to say . . . there is a meditative tradition in the west . . . al those 13th century mystics, like Eckhart. . . and such. ommm: the ego is relative to the larger system, hmmm, interesting... Rajah: nomad - absolutely Rajah: the rot begins with the renaissance
nomad: I think thee is something bigger too. guddy: explain the rot, pls, Rajah Rajah: My point is however that, representations index consciousness guddy: what introduced the split of the ego from the superior? Rajah: guddy- humanism and the perspectival cone nomad: Could that "something bigger" be the "GLOBAL BRAIN", that spectre haunting CyberForum? topcat: huzzah, whistle, whistle, cheers Rajah: well
peanut: maybe bigger peanut: are we speaking of something metaphysical? Rajah: I read the forum log [Hermes]: Hi ommm! I'm just a "bot" avatar, so don't ask me too much... Rajah: HI HERMES topcat: lol Rajah: and I thought something significant Rajah: happened when you all did the pinkie thing sally: whuh? peanut: pinkie? ommm: yes the Pinkies did the Funky together in VWD world topcat: ah, the pinkie thing peanut: ok guddy: yes, Rajah, it was significant peanut: sorry to have missed THAT! nomad: Yes . . . I hope bigger, because most of the computer models of human consciousness seem to be purely syntactical in nature . . . which seems a shriveled notion of what being is . . . for me at least. topcat: and we all fell apart, as Pinkie will do sally: hey the dead bird disappeared! Rajah: what happened to the Pinkie avatar ommm: Pinkie is in our other world, VWD Rajah: I wanted to try ommm: we could go there, if you want Rajah: yeas please peanut: Hermes has been whispering to me sally: he's that kind of guy … or gal peanut: heh heh ommm: okay, let's meet at ground zero in VWD, here's how... ommm: just to to the Teleport menu at the top ommm: and click "To" ommm: type in "vwd" (no quotes) and we will all meet there in VWD ommm: ready? set.... [Hermes]: Bye "Claudia"... sally: what about me [Hermes]: Bye jokester... sally: hey Hermes what about me sally: me me me [Hermes]: Bye spans1... ommm: try it sally [Hermes]: Bye Rajah... [Hermes]: Bye guddy... ommm: come join us sally & nomad [Hermes]: Bye sally... spans1: lucky to find you avatars sally: Hermes didn't say bye to me topcat: so if you page up, looking in first person, there is Matt's Flicker node above us ommm: choose a Pinkie avatar if you can .... guddy: sally, don't take it personal guddy: Hermes lacks concentration at times nomad: Pinky is sort of like Lacan's "body in pieces" . . . and "pinned together at the joints like that of a puppet" . . . like the little girl trance dancers perhaps . . . though with a more awkward kind of grace. sally: alright then Rajah: guys my program crashed ommm: let's all go inside Flicker
peanut: you ok Rajah? Rajah: Ive missed out on your collective consciousness Rajah: but I'm back in now nomad: Come in . . . but try not to use "shift". Find the doors. sally: hello mysterious peanut Rajah: red boxes ommm: great! here we are! Rajah: lets dance ommm: okay, dance, dance, dance ommm: do the Funky, Pinkies! guddy: thx, topcat topcat: welcome sally: there should be audio, billy idol---dancing with myself peanut: its like watching Atari's Asteroid game for me Rajah: is this a representation or a "pure' communication' sally: hey peanut, woncha dance? topcat: here rajah are you ready to exchange body parts? try the Egyptian peanut: I can't I'm just CY peanut: BUT I'm dancing in my living room right now nomad: Are we having cybersex? sally: oh cool nomad: Ha-ha! guddy: I am not sure who's me or somebody else's parts
Rajah: hey topcat Rajah: that's you and me there topcat: that's right, cool sally: oh oh dancing with myse---elf sally: ssss sally: aaaa guddy: problem is, your point-f-view/perspective doe not change with hopping around sally: ffff sally: eeee sally: tttt sally: eeee sally: yyyy guddy: my body dances, but my perspectives stays peanut: yea guddy I noticed that too spans1: from my pov sally & guddy have merged peanut: you're bringing back some oldies Sal sally: safety DANCE! topcat: hoo baby sally: and you can dance!
Rajah: hi ommm peanut: Wish we could record the movements topcat: we could with video guddy: would be cool, to have perspectives change with body motion (such as in walk), too much computing, I guess peanut: I think its my bandwith peanut: its always like this at home peanut: we should do another accd movie sally: Dance Dance Revolution nomad: Disco is not dead!
sally: word guddy: I am loosing my sense of individuality. can I change my color and count my parts? ommm: i didn't realize how much Raj would enjoy it Rajah: Yeah Rajah: but getting serious ommm: okay folks, let's hit the Green Back arrow in the upper left of your browser until we all return to ACCD world sally: seriously dance Rajah: what does everyone think about Rajah: the distinction of representation from communication peanut: I think she/he's brushing you off Topcat topcat: yes, fraid so peanut: Why does Hermes say bye to you jokester when you arrive? sally: hermes, you may be just a bot but it was rude not to say goodbye to me [Hermes]: Hi ommm! I'm just a "bot" avatar, so don't ask me too much... peanut: why the whispering Hermes? sally: hey man, common courtesy topcat: Hermes needs to be reprogrammed, actually, completely updated. He's several generations behind ommm: everyone together here? sally: Hermes is secretive nomad: Hermes is talking to me . . . Rajah: I'm here sally: hi ommm: yes, Hermes is in need of an upgrade nomad: Hmmm. ommm: okay, we are ending our meeting today at the Lumen node where we can talk metaphysics peanut: I think Hermes is insecure about being a bot hence "don't ask me too much" in a whisper sally: Hermes needs better people skills [Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a node is. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node. guddy: can you re-program me too, I am also behind? topcat: lol Immigration Officer: You are being joined by jokester. sally: Hermes is bored being a bot, he wants more [Hermes]: Bye Rajah... sally: more life! more living!
ommm: this is the Lumen node peanut: when did you wake up Hermes? Rajah: nice place for metaphysics ommm: so what happens Raj, when we are dancing? real: -How come I can't move??? Rajah: I think that transcription (writing) Rajah: changed the world peanut: is rep from comm like quoting instead of spkng ? spans1: representation communicates with metaphors, poetry is allowed real: Thank you! topcat: sure Rajah: the oral tradition is communication
ommm: you mean dancing is more basic than typing? sally: poetry...have been reading Rilke ommm: what about typed (push-button) dancing? Rajah: we are back in the earlier ritual mode Rajah: we share the communication better Hypatia: what about the loss of embodiment in the process though? sally: dancing is being in touch with our physical bodies spans1: you can only experience you own dance in third person Rajah: it is more intuitive ommm: we would like a more intuitive but still fantasy computer world topcat: well, there are two different skill sets in simultaneous use in vworlds... and the alternation between them produces rupture as well as rapture... sally: like losing oneself in the act of dancing? Rajah: actually it is the same ritual in the physical disco Hypatia: body is sense though and the "feeling" was not there when movements were made -- how to bridge that in cyberspace? spans1: the POV doesn't jive... as was pointed out ommm: does the computer always remove us from immediacy? sally: i don't think you can bridge it ommm: are we always "sitting in front of..."? peanut: I think your question goes back to our discussion of global time Ommm guddy: body or mind, ommm? sally: in some sense, it does remove us spans1: with this interface yes nomad: Aren't ritual forms just texts (in the semiotic sense), and if not, how does it differ from textuality? topcat: I was pretty absorbed in trying to get my av to switch heads with another's though.. it was very conducive to feeling telepresent peanut: Immediacy is something experienced in fixed times sally: but also, we can connect instantaneously to people and places we can't connect to physically Rajah: nomad - has a good point
ommm: doesn't dancing allow life energy to pass through me unreflectively? spans1: i agree Hypatia: perhaps if movement were not so connected to one digit performing a keyswipe but rather tied to sensorial response -- could be done in cyberspace I think Rajah: and into me topcat: yes, that is the nature of dance ommm: yes, a more flowing throughput, Hypat.. Rajah: nomad - i think they have been reduced Rajah: to texts in structuralism
sally: my friends, oh my, i have to go! goodbye! guddy: the Pinkies pretty much passed through me unreflectively sally: thank youRajah! Rajah: but in fact are much more open ommm: oh, yes, i see our time has flown by already ommm: and we have kept Rajah up for a couple hours now Hypatia: the "ritual" aspect of the communication endeavor transcends the text and digital shroud that encased the experience nomad: yes. I think there is a distinction to be made too. Hypatia: could you speak more on ritual? nomad: Flow . . . topcat: it seems we always come back to the same point...that until the interface expands beyond the keyboard, we feel 'lost in space', rather than at home, dans nos peaux as they might say in French... topcat: more or less peanut: YES topcat - I think so too nomad: You got it Topcat! Rajah: it's been fun nomad: Thanks Rajah! ommm: thank you, Raj, for stimulating our thought about oral and written comm Hypatia: thanks Rajah ommm: you've been brave to come to us so early peanut: thank you for staying up so late ommm: and thanks also to India and Australia topcat: sleep well peanut: you too Guddy and Span1 guddy: raj, pls leave us your site address nomad: Yes, and come back soon! ommm: greetings to Malaysia!! ommm: many Funky dances by Pinkies all over the world Hypatia: salamat malam jokester: thank you Rajah Rajah: thanks to you all spans1: we always have to go just when its getting good, bye ommm: got some great photos of Raj doing the Pinkie topcat: cool guddy: that's like in real life, span ommm: see it online tomorrow at the cyberforum website Rajah: guddy – http://www.freespeech.org/eartasean nomad: Wheeeeeeeeeee! topcat: yeah, and it'll be here in the logs to look up too peanut: good bye Rajah/1 Rajah: byr all peanut: Bye all - I have to go Rajah: bye guddy: thx, rajah ommm: bye all topcat: bye everyone...gonna see Scary Movie later today ommm: weeeeeeeeeeeee
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